ep 118. The Road From Me to Me... and Ultimately Me

:: 00:00

a black executive perspective whether you're aware 

of it or not it's a topic that is often avoided

:: 00:06

we'll discuss race and how it plays a factor 

and how we didn't even talk about this topic

:: 00:12

cuz we were afraid a black executive perspective 

but a big part of it was understanding that this

:: 00:20

is who I am and I want to really spend some time 

and some courage around understanding that and and

:: 00:27

going as deep as I can with this this is what I do 

what's the alignment that's possible because there

:: 00:33

always going to be tradeoffs there there're always 

going to be aspects of myself which I need to I'll

:: 00:38

be required to to place aside for a moment it's 

welcome to a black executive perspective podcast a

:: 00:47

safe space where we discuss all matters related to 

race especially race in Corporate America I'm your

:: 00:53

host your guide your Sensei Tony tidbit and you 

know one of the things I I struggled with in my

:: 01:02

life is really trying to figure out who I really 

am you know and I think that's a journey that all

:: 01:10

of us go on from the time we come into the world 

we really try to figure out who we are what we

:: 01:18

like and it's a struggle and obviously there's a 

conflict from you know what we think Society wants

:: 01:26

us to be what our family wants us to be and I was 

no different right I remember my mother telling

:: 01:33

me something when I was a kid and she you could 

be you good at math you could be an accountant

:: 01:38

so I was like I'm going to be an accountant right 

however at the end of the day it's important that

:: 01:43

we have the self-discovery in terms of who we 

really are and a lot of times we think it has

:: 01:49

to do with you know our titles at work or you 

know the different accomplishments that we had

:: 01:55

as well as our failures and we know that's not 

entirely the case so today our guest James Jones

:: 02:03

will share his story and what he discovered on 

his journey through this thing we call Life Jim

:: 02:13

welcome to a black executive perspective podcast 

it's great to be here buddy I'm so excited that

:: 02:19

you're here and especially we're going to talk 

about you know self-discovery and um you know it's

:: 02:25

something that we struggle with I still struggle 

with I think you know most people very rarely you

:: 02:31

know people understand who they are why they're 

on this planet what they're supposed to do so I

:: 02:38

really appreciate you coming on and sharing your 

story and providing some insights to our audience

:: 02:43

so before we get into the heavy stuff my friend 

give us a little background on you well what

:: 02:49

shall I say I'm a an executive coach a certified 

executive coach and Dei consultant I live in New

:: 02:56

York City and Brooklyn more precisely in bedy more 

precisely than that um yeah I've been here now for

:: 03:03

off and on for any number of years I've lived 

abroad uh but my my my my my path always took

:: 03:09

me back to Brooklyn so here I am oh so Brooklyn is 

the key though right so why do you say your path

:: 03:14

always took you back to Brookland well I was born 

in St Louis Missouri quite frankly and uh went to

:: 03:21

school in Boston in Cambridge at Harvard and uh 

came to New York initially to go to juliard in the

:: 03:27

American Opera theater and pths took me away from 

New York after that I won a full bright Fellowship

:: 03:33

I went to Europe I was there for about five years 

or so came back lived in Brooklyn again in fact

:: 03:38

in the same building I'd lived in before and uh 

then I moved out to Seattle came back to New York

:: 03:43

lived in the same apartment building I lived 

in before so I'm a real homing pigeon I think

:: 03:48

and um yeah and here I am could I leave Brooklyn 

now I probably could but I take Brooklyn with me

:: 03:54

I think wherever I went well W listen when you 

keep coming back to the same place you're right

:: 04:00

it's part of who you are indeed no go ahead what 

you gonna say I said indeed it is yeah it's part

:: 04:06

of who you are right so and look I'm from Detroit 

Michigan I still I live in Connecticut but I still

:: 04:12

read Detroit news and Free Press every day still 

keep up on everything going on in Michigan so

:: 04:17

definitely relate to that however my friend you've 

had a very you know and you just spoke to it at a

:: 04:24

high level you've had a very uh unique journey 

I mean St Luke leis juliard Harvard you didn't

:: 04:33

say it but Colombia uh executive life coach so I 

mean that's a lot that's that number one that is

:: 04:41

outstanding which is awesome however why don't 

we we back up a little bit you know because I

:: 04:48

love to hear you know from St Louis to juliard 

is is you know I don't think those two words go

:: 04:55

together okay so tell us a little bit give us 

a little bit you know from your background in

:: 05:00

terms of you know where you started in St Louis 

and you know to the next levels in terms of how

:: 05:05

you got out I think mine was sort of the classic 

social studies story I came from a single parent

:: 05:11

household I had 11 brothers and sisters a single 

mother not an unusual tale to be told in many of

:: 05:17

our cities at a particular era um I was the 

seventh of 11 children spent most of my time

:: 05:24

my earlier years with my grandmother quite frankly 

and that was sort of I think where my core values

:: 05:29

I thought were beginning to be sort of sown I 

was a very shy young person uh my mother had

:: 05:35

a a rough mouth let's just say and she took no 

prisoners and I always sort of cowed from that

:: 05:41

my grandmother was a very sort of saintly woman 

said well you got to understand your mama she

:: 05:45

got to go out and work every day and so I want 

you to be a good Christian boy Jimmy Jones and

:: 05:50

understand and one day I uh I got a I was in music 

always I always sang and I got a a scholarship to

:: 05:57

go to a a music school in Illinois Illinois 

Wesleyan University I'll never forget and for

:: 06:02

my family that was really something someone going 

to college the first in Generations but then out

:: 06:07

of the blue some dude showed up at my high school 

and he said I got called to the principal's office

:: 06:13

and this man said I'm a recruiter from Harvard 

and I said how do you spell Harvard sort of

:: 06:17

thing for whatever reason he saw something in 

me that uh he decided to groom me and took me

:: 06:26

to Harvard I got into Harvard and uh the po 

music school got sort of tossed to the side

:: 06:31

there were many people who had grown up with 

me singing who that was a grave mistake and

:: 06:35

who knows in your life you look back and you 

say what's an error what was sort of sent by

:: 06:40

the the universe for me to pursue well hold on 

one second because you just hold you went from

:: 06:47

you you I mean buddy that's a lot so let's 

back up a little bit okay so 11 siblings yes

:: 06:55

how is that and you're number seven okay so 

tell me a little bit you know single parent

:: 07:00

household in St Louis 11 kids Your mother 

tell us a little bit about that experience

:: 07:08

ah what can I say about that I think you again 

I don't want to generalize but being one of 11

:: 07:14

it was almost like being an only child 

in that my older siblings were so much

:: 07:19

removed from me and the younger so much removed 

until much that I was likely to have to contend

:: 07:24

with i i contended with if you will as as a as 

a single entity having said which very loving

:: 07:33

household without a doubt we were not kissy Huggy 

people by any stretch of the imagination but food

:: 07:39

was on the table such as it was and to me that's 

love do you know that was my mother love language

:: 07:44

you had the you had the light on and you had food 

on the table you go somewhere else for hug sort

:: 07:51

clear around that that's awesome you know I'm not 

not sure that works for everyone as well as it did

:: 07:58

for some but uh looking back and you know they 

say you what is it you you experience forward

:: 08:03

but you learn backwards there was a point in my 

experiencing forward that I arrived at a learning

:: 08:08

moment I thought ah I get it now I recall one day 

when I was uh one evening when I was in sort of my

:: 08:14

second semester of being a a sophomore at Harvard 

I called my mother in the middle of the night

:: 08:19

and she said James Clarence she always called me 

James Clarence said mother and I was such a snotty

:: 08:24

little thing I called my mother this little black 

boy from St Louis calling his mother mother hello

:: 08:30

that should tell you something right away I said 

mother I get you do you know what she said to me I

:: 08:35

knew you would and she hung up on me and that was 

the beginning of a whole new relationship with it

:: 08:41

didn't need more explanation it needed nothing I 

got it I also developed a very bad mouth because

:: 08:46

of so when you said you got it are you saying 

that you understood the responsibility and all

:: 08:53

the things that your mother did to bring you 

guys up is that what you're saying or what is

:: 08:57

it something different 100 % I understood her 

I I began to empathize with this woman and her

:: 09:04

struggles and and the kinds of decisions she was 

making and priorities she was setting which in

:: 09:10

my little corner I didn't get as a growing child 

for perhaps someone more aware than I might have

:: 09:15

gotten it sooner but the moment I got it I've 

never looked back from it I can tell you that

:: 09:20

well I and I think I think we all at some point 

most kids struggle with that right and I think

:: 09:25

that's one of the main things that parents always 

try to you know wake their kids up in terms of do

:: 09:30

you know what this takes to do right it money is 

not growing on trees I have to go out and you know

:: 09:36

do whatever I need to do to take care of you so I 

think you know we I think I can hear my mother in

:: 09:42

my ear saying that Double A's looking nod in his 

head his parents said the same thing to him so and

:: 09:47

you know what and I'm saying the same thing to my 

daughters right now all right so so it's something

:: 09:53

that we all you know we all struggle with but it 

was great and and even though she probably you

:: 10:00

was a short uh short um answer I'm pretty sure 

she was appreciative that you at least reached

:: 10:07

out and said hey I finally figured it out this 

answer was it was it was short in terms of the

:: 10:12

number of words she used but it was decades 

in depth believe me there was no need for any

:: 10:18

more we understood from that moment and again that 

understanding never ever left me and it never left

:: 10:25

that relationship so that's awesome so so seven of 

11 matter of fact buddy that's I love it no wonder

:: 10:32

7 11 so you you get no wonder blessed so how did 

you seven out of 11 uh siblings um how did you get

:: 10:42

involved in music where did that come from can I 

was you know singing as a a young child I sang in

:: 10:49

local choruses and all of that and someone as a 

some member of the church in fact as a gift they

:: 10:54

said they were going to give me three months of 

voice lessons I was like 15 or so my voice voice

:: 10:59

hadn't changed yet but I went to this fellow who 

ended up becoming quite a famous vocal coach in

:: 11:03

New York uh his name was Orin Brown and he took me 

on and at the end of the three months he said my

:: 11:10

gift to what's going on with your people as he 

puts and I'll never getet will be to make sure

:: 11:16

that you get the best that I can offer you and 

no one's going to have to pay the the you know

:: 11:22

the put money in the till for that and I stayed 

with him until again I went from there to Harvard

:: 11:27

when I graduated from Harvard by then he had gone 

to juliard as a teacher and you know got accepted

:: 11:33

into juliard and I joined him there too so wow 

so let's back up a little bit he he said that I

:: 11:39

want to make sure your people um Can maximize 

and I'm I'm I'm paraph paraphrase it maximize

:: 11:47

your opportunity is that what did he mean by that 

gosh I don't want to speak for him let me tell

:: 11:53

you what I what I lived from that okay was that 

you are a young poor black talented intelligent

:: 12:01

I suppose at least that was his perspective and 

this is my contribution if you will to what was

:: 12:08

beginning to be a nent aspect of the the struggle 

the you know the people are people black people

:: 12:15

demanding voice and all of that and his way of 

and I don't mean to speak for him this was his

:: 12:21

contribution I hope he also saw talent to me so 

well I would I mean I mean and I'm pretty sure

:: 12:26

he did because eventually you ended up going to 

juliard and stuff that I don't think he just you

:: 12:31

know slid you in the back door and said you know 

yeah so I'm pretty sure he saw the talent let me

:: 12:37

so what what type of music so you said choir so 

what what type of music was were you singing aha

:: 12:44

when I went to Harvard I was an English major but 

by end of my sophomore year I was already singing

:: 12:50

professionally around around Boston and by the 

time I was at the end of my junior year I think

:: 12:55

I was spending 75% of my time performing I was an 

opera singer singer and uh that's what I was doing

:: 13:01

and so the path to juliard was already being sort 

of paved so the moment I graduated I went to New

:: 13:07

York so how did you get into Opera I don't know 

because usually people usually people say they

:: 13:15

start singing in the church they you know stuff 

to that nature and then they go off and start a

:: 13:22

group Opera how were you exposed to Opera when you 

were a kid tell us a little bit about that not at

:: 13:28

all not at at least until I got to high school 

I guess something in the quality of my voice um

:: 13:33

suggested that it was a voice particularly when 

my voice changed that was developing into um what

:: 13:40

someone heard as having operatic qualities about 

it really you I don't want to make it any more

:: 13:46

romantic than that is what it is I will tell 

this anecdote my voice actually changed the at

:: 13:52

one night when I was on stage to be more correct 

about that my voice had changed when no one had

:: 13:57

heard me sing and I'll never forget singing Some 

Enchanted Evening on this big stage with all these

:: 14:02

people and my teacher was booming in the in in 

in in the in the in the background and when we

:: 14:08

finished singing the piano was playing I turned 

to the audience and I said now I'm going to sing

:: 14:12

this to you in my other voice Meanwhile my teacher 

fainting backstage and I sang the whole thing over

:: 14:19

again in Baron oh my God so you were so so now you 

and again I'm ignorant to Opera to be you know my

:: 14:28

mother she grew she was from Long Island she you 

know she exposed me to classical music she used

:: 14:34

to love classical music I don't know oper the 

only thing I know about Opera is when I was a

:: 14:40

kid watching Bugs Bunny Looney Tunes and Elmer F 

was saying Kill the Wabbit kill I mean that's all

:: 14:47

I know right so so tell us because I you know I 

number one it's and again I'm this is my ignorance

:: 14:55

so i' love for you to educate me and maybe other 

people who who are not aware of Opera so yeah how

:: 15:00

did you get exposed to Opera again it was just 

the fortunes of of being around people who had

:: 15:07

themselves that exposure and who invited me in 

again you know coming from where I came from I

:: 15:13

was not likely to have much exposure to it but 

you know very early on I was placed in gifted

:: 15:17

programs and in in in M years where people could 

could sponsor that type of exposure so I was very

:: 15:24

fortunate that was that's a blessing right to be 

able to be exposed and not only be exposed be able

:: 15:31

to actually participate and become really good at 

it which you did okay um so did you envision at

:: 15:40

this time frame that you were going to this was 

going to be you know we talk about identity and

:: 15:45

Discovery and all this did you envision that you 

would be and you traveled around and you actually

:: 15:51

went to plays and performed you know around the 

country and I think you also went to to Paris

:: 15:57

and performed there right did you think that this 

was going to be your you know career I didn't you

:: 16:04

know to mean there was nothing else but music 

but Opera and even though I majored in English

:: 16:09

at at Harvard I never lost the slightest thought 

but what I would be an opera singer and I still

:: 16:16

identify as an artist wearing corporate drag if 

you will very much I know my sensibility I own it

:: 16:25

so going to Harvard was that what was it because 

of music how did that opportunity become real I

:: 16:32

think it became I got the opportunity because of 

I was something different you know God knows I'm

:: 16:37

not a great intellectual but I was smart enough 

you know I could pass the very basics of getting

:: 16:41

in and I had the music and I suspect that those 

who were making those selections thought that was

:: 16:47

different to invite into Harvard I can imagine so 

so what was the feeling single black kid growing

:: 16:53

up in St Louis now going to one of the most 

prestigious universities in the world world how

:: 16:59

how did that did that ring did did you were like 

wilded by it or was it was just a regular thing

:: 17:04

oh you know I can look back on it now and come up 

with all kinds of descriptors which uh perhaps I

:: 17:09

weren't feing at the time it was you know culture 

shock you know being dirt poor all of a sudden

:: 17:14

being around people who had $150 million you know 

trust funds there was no connection I could make

:: 17:20

with any of that and nor did I have to struggle 

with that connection because I was protected in

:: 17:24

a sense I was cocooned because of Music quite 

frankly Harvard took care of me without a doubt

:: 17:31

without a doubt I never had the slightest want for 

four years neither money for going home or going

:: 17:36

on trips I went on world tours and all of that and 

again coming from a family of 11 you know kids of

:: 17:42

an uneducated mother so it's extremely fortunate 

I'm a horrible School chauvinist I'm not a snob

:: 17:48

about where I went to school but I definitely 

wear the Crimson I do so you know they just had

:: 17:54

the Harvard Yale game uh last week though do you 

ever go to you ever go to the Harvard Yale game or

:: 18:00

what are you don't want are you ready to get off 

the podcast I said y the har jail game to be seen

:: 18:07

not for were they doing something else out there 

but celebrating me how's that for ego I love it

:: 18:15

I love it well look that's that's part of going 

to to going there right is because it's part of

:: 18:21

now and again we're talking about identity and 

self-discovery and stuff of that nature so that

:: 18:26

that is um that is awesome so how in in terms you 

were you said you protected you had a cocoon I

:: 18:35

did which was great did you interact with the 

other student body and if you did what was the

:: 18:40

and you said hey I'm an opera singer I'm on the 

choir and obviously the the black population at

:: 18:46

Harvard I can imagine you know when you went 

there was was minimal right so what was that

:: 18:51

experience like it was again I was so protected 

I I don't want to take any credit to myself but

:: 18:58

I called there was a picture on the front of the 

Harvard Crimson which was our local you know the

:: 19:02

Harvard's newspaper and I was standing next 

to the president of the Harvard who had gone

:: 19:06

to a conent which I was in the night before and 

stopped to speak to me on Harvard Yard is where

:: 19:12

the Freshman live and the Crimson captured a 

photo of it and they said Jimmy Jones with a

:: 19:18

friend I was obscenely popular and I want to say 

that now because I want to then peel back that to

:: 19:26

speaking of identity I was extreme really horribly 

popular Harvard has what they call the only at the

:: 19:32

time the only four elected positions Harvard had 

was what they call class Marshals and they for the

:: 19:38

last 100 years or so had always been the wealthy 

white athlet athletes I was number two wow made

:: 19:45

all the papers it was the first time Harvard 

that had a black um person in in in that role

:: 19:52

and I just got as a class Marshall it was just 

one of those things in fact in my graduation the

:: 19:57

four bus were sing together and I was wearing 

a red something other and one of the the the

:: 20:02

Harvard Lums some government official came to 

me he said we invited you here and you you're

:: 20:06

such a rebel wearing all of that red he did not 

know that I was a class Marshall and and let me

:: 20:12

stay with that for one more tony I announ these 

things not as any way it it was a fortune I I I

:: 20:17

I Grew From that but it took years to peel 

back a lot of that to discover my identity

:: 20:23

at the core of that and that was work and that 

was pain but I'm I'm I'm grateful that impeding

:: 20:30

it back I was able to hold on to what for me 

I value from that experience but believe me

:: 20:35

it took some peeling back indeed it did so when 

you say it took some peeling back what do you

:: 20:41

mean by that can you share a little bit more yeah 

if I can um when I went to juliard that was sort

:: 20:47

the beginning of it I was in the American Opera 

theater there right up to Harvard that was my

:: 20:51

first time having to confront that I really didn't 

have the emotional maturity that perhaps I would

:: 21:00

have developed had I gone to a state school 

or whatever I'd been so protected by Harvard

:: 21:04

and it its traditions and it's money and all 

of that and now I'm thrown into the pot with

:: 21:09

you know hardworking opera singers who you know 

you know take no prisoners and I had I did not

:: 21:16

have the emotional um solidity to be able to to 

confront that in in a way that was anything but

:: 21:24

painful it was a very difficult time for me and 

I ended up leaving juli art after a year make a

:: 21:29

long story very short even though I went back 

later to complete um you that operatic program

:: 21:36

I just didn't have the maturity emotional 

maturity emotional uh in int intelligence

:: 21:41

whatever you may call it to confront New York 

and what it meant to be a young black person on

:: 21:46

the streets of New York I had nothing to prepare 

me for that nothing wow and and and and which is

:: 21:51

interesting because growing up poor in St Louis 

which your mother probably was scrapping you know

:: 21:59

just to be able to take care of you and your and 

your and your siblings um and then I mean that

:: 22:05

takes a lot of that's an attitude itself right in 

terms of scrapping in terms of you know whatever

:: 22:11

comes up going she's going out slaying lions 

and then coming home and and taking care of

:: 22:16

you guys so none of that kind of passed on to you 

if I'm hearing you correctly because you were jet

:: 22:23

not jettison you were you know uh taken into the 

bosom uh because of your talent into Harvard and

:: 22:31

very well protected if I'm hearing you correctly 

and everything was taken care of for you and then

:: 22:37

after you graduated now you're out on the street 

and it's every man for himself very much right

:: 22:45

and and you're having a a hard time dealing with 

that is that what I'm hearing totally you are and

:: 22:50

I think you say none of it was passed on it was 

passed on the growth was about clearing out the

:: 22:55

debris of har and any number of other things and 

again you know I'm a huge Harvard uh devote but

:: 23:03

that aspect of Harvard if you will and that type 

of cocoon it took me some time to sort of clear

:: 23:11

that aside to understand exactly what was at the 

core of what my mother taught me and what was that

:: 23:16

what was that Decor that she taught you a kind 

of self-reliance under extreme circumstances I'm

:: 23:23

not telling a tale that you know we we've not all 

experienced it time but it just took me a longer

:: 23:29

while perhaps to get there and to understand 

that at the end of the day what you are who

:: 23:36

you are what you value has got to be where you 

where you where you plant your flag nothing else

:: 23:43

will will work and I'm not clear that I got that 

right long time that day you know that telephone

:: 23:49

call to my mother was the beginning of that right 

but it took me a while to just to connect the dots

:: 23:55

if you will right right and you know I I it's 

it's it's interesting the way you position that

:: 24:01

because I you know and if thank you for sharing I 

think that's a struggle we all and maybe not into

:: 24:08

your um particular story but I think you know a 

lot of times you know you could it for you to be

:: 24:17

able to to to self-reflect and really like you 

said peel the onion back and really look deep

:: 24:24

within in terms of yeah I went here I had this 

opportunity um but the end of the day it's not

:: 24:32

really all who I am right it's it's an experience 

I take some stuff out of it it helped me open in

:: 24:41

some areas it helped me grow but in other areas 

it didn't help me grow is that what I'm me are we

:: 24:48

on the same page my friend we are maybe a slight 

Nuance of difference would be a slight shade of

:: 24:54

difference between it all helped me grow got 

I just had to come to a better understanding

:: 25:00

of of self-awareness around how the crevices 

I was creating for myself and the things that

:: 25:08

really were leveraging growth you know and I don't 

mean to speak in sort of coaching terms but that's

:: 25:12

really came down to and again I'm talking you know 

experience forward learn backwards it took a lot

:: 25:16

of I'm continuing on I'm on that learning curve 

still but you come to this point where you go

:: 25:20

okay guess what you still got stuff to figure 

out cotton you want you still got to go out

:: 25:29

tomorrow and pick some more and little by little 

your your your bag will be as full as it's going

:: 25:35

to be and if it's not who you going to blame not 

your mother not Harvard not anybody else I don't

:: 25:41

mean to be flip around it but I really do feel 

that way no no no I love that I mean and and look

:: 25:46

I think that is awesome you were saying a minute 

ago that you were in juliard you went to juliard

:: 25:52

and then you left all right you didn't finish you 

came back and finished later what what happened

:: 25:57

there I went downstairs one day at jewelry yard 

feeling miserable about something and uh and uh

:: 26:03

I was at a a news kiosk and this man know you're 

in New York some dude walking up to you that you

:: 26:09

know you wonder what's going on there and he said 

are you an actor I said no I'm not an actor you

:: 26:14

know I go to juliard he said I'm a director and 

I'm doing a play off Broadway called shoes I'll

:: 26:20

never forget it and boy when I pick when I 

think of one of the roles you dead on for it

:: 26:24

I said well I'm not an actor he said would you 

come down anyway and and talked to us so I went

:: 26:29

down and you know they hired me to do this play 

it was an Off Broadway play equity and I quit

:: 26:34

juliard the next day wow again I had no emotional 

intelligence I had no way of of thinking through

:: 26:43

these things with any type of real strategy it 

felt good to do it and not done it so you quit

:: 26:51

juliard to do this off Broadway play on a wh and 

an agent saw me in the play loved me signed me on

:: 26:59

and and again came to another Crossroads sent me 

out to to uh uh Indiana as a guest artist to do

:: 27:07

a play there to start a play there and to give 

lectures and all that and whilst I was there uh

:: 27:13

they learned they they knew I had sung I was 

asked to sing at someone's home at some sort

:: 27:18

of dinner party at that dinner party was this 

woman who was a conductor from New York and she

:: 27:23

said oh no you need to be on the operatic stage 

do you know I got back to New York and I went

:: 27:28

to my agent and I said uh I don't want to do this 

anymore he said dude you ever hear thing called a

:: 27:33

contract but she was kind enough to let me go and 

of course by the time I reached out to this woman

:: 27:40

who said I'm going to make your career she said 

no I don't make careers of only big people so was

:: 27:45

all cocktail talk meanwhile I had no nothing to 

go on but that was literally how I sort of went

:: 27:51

back to Har then I had decided I was going to 

run away to England and go to the Royal Academy

:: 27:56

of Music that that's how I made decisions I'm 

going to do it so I did it I went to England I

:: 28:01

sort of went to the door of the Royal Academy 

of Music or Royal conservative I start i' like

:: 28:05

I'd like to go to school here I'd like to learn 

here they said sir that's not how we do things

:: 28:09

you you'll have to wait for the regular audition 

season I said no but you really must hear me say

:: 28:14

they heard me they accepted me I got a great job 

there in like two days being a uh an assistant

:: 28:20

to a fellow who was in The Diplomatic Corp but 

who also had gone to Harvard that was that con

:: 28:25

that that connection there I got chicken feet two 

days before I was supposed to start my program at

:: 28:30

the Royal conservatory and I came and I quit 

everything and came back to America can you

:: 28:35

believe that I had auditioned for the Curtis 

Institute of Music in Philadelphia for their

:: 28:39

Opera program they were already auditioning people 

to take the place of the one I had abandoned and

:: 28:45

they let me in anyway that sort of got me back 

into the Opera totally nonsense you wouldn't want

:: 28:51

to write about it well I mean but to be fair and 

again the way I'm the what I'm hearing is is is

:: 28:57

seems like a lot of things came easy for you no no 

they didn't they came stupidly for me well I mean

:: 29:03

but but to be fair though you're making decisions 

people you know I mean Harvard hey you're a great

:: 29:09

singer juli art you know your your your coach is 

go you go there right then you all of a sudden

:: 29:15

get an opportunity to be on stage and you get an 

opportunity to and so you're making decisions just

:: 29:22

based on what's coming up right in your life 

versus having any type commitment or strategy

:: 29:29

or anything like that I have the clarity of mine 

now to recognize I wasn't making decisions I was

:: 29:35

rolling with the punches as a were and I'm not 

clear that would have should have could that it's

:: 29:42

pointless to do that but as I've gotten older and 

worked with other people I recognize that there's

:: 29:48

a big difference between making a a a thoughtful 

decision and just saying okay today and for many

:: 29:56

years that's what I was doing not doing myself 

you know I I'm grateful for all those experiences

:: 30:03

but I also recognize that a lot of that was just 

stumbling through so what what woke you up what

:: 30:10

made you you know have this Epiphany in terms of 

you know what I'm just you doing stuff on a whim

:: 30:16

I need to you know be a little bit more serious 

concrete I need to understand more about me what

:: 30:22

what was the Epiphany what was the turning point 

I'm not clear I've ever had one after five years

:: 30:27

and I was singing a lot though you know you know 

you sing some you you know you're impoverished

:: 30:32

for the next four months you sing some more sort 

of thing when I I came back to New York I thought

:: 30:36

I should and I wanted a plan B I was at least 

smart enough to think that I wanted a plan B

:: 30:42

not incidentally something I would recommend for 

committed artist you don't need a plan B all your

:: 30:47

plan is here it's in that music but I wanted a 

plan B that was the downside of having gone to

:: 30:52

a place like Harvard you know somebody had a an 

American Express card and I wanted one of those

:: 30:56

sort of things so I got into Columbia into their 

business school although they were not going to

:: 31:01

accept me because they said well you're uh your 

your your your your thinking is fine but their

:: 31:07

Mass skills are suffering would you be willing 

to delay to defer coming to Columbia for a half

:: 31:12

a year and take I don't know what it was calculus 

I said God no I definitely won't get in after that

:: 31:20

we'll take him anyway my game plan was to go to 

Columbia get an NBA hahaa and then put that in my

:: 31:26

back pocket and go back onto the operatic States 

that's literally what I thought I would do City

:: 31:31

Bank had other plans for me they said well that's 

really great you go and S it to met all you want

:: 31:37

but we want those student loans to begin in the 

month so that's how City B bang had a different

:: 31:42

plan they want their money Che so I had to get 

a job so and the rest is history and here I

:: 31:48

am so listen so when you say the rest is history 

because you got your NBA uh uh at Columbia I did

:: 31:59

and then you transition into HR am I correct 

so that was pretty much prob I was going to

:: 32:05

be able to do I had no Finance skills or or any 

of that sort of thing or strategy skills and I

:: 32:11

I shouldn't do myself I should do myself some 

purpose I you had an instinct around you know

:: 32:16

what HR was about at the time so it made sense 

that I would get an HR job yes wow and then so

:: 32:23

so let's let's just back up a little bit right 

we're talking Opera we're talking Harvard we're

:: 32:30

talking you know a stage actor we're talking you 

know traveling around the world singing with and

:: 32:37

and NBA in Colombia and now you're going to 

be in Corporate America doing HR so so tell

:: 32:45

us a little because I mean that that's a that's 

a different little little journey there the only

:: 32:51

that hadn't changed as much as it might was Jim 

Jones unfortunately like how so to me being in

:: 32:58

HR was you know being in corporate was you had 

a Coach bag you were Gucci you know you had uh

:: 33:05

Brooks Brothers tassel loafers you had suspenders 

and a and a self-tied bow tie and you wore a

:: 33:10

Burberry that's what I thought you were supposed 

to do oh I looked the part very much but I but

:: 33:15

again I I still didn't I didn't recognize that 

now now I do didn't have that type of of of of

:: 33:23

awareness breath of experience that would protect 

me that would guide me through successfully a lot

:: 33:30

of those early experiences in Corporate America I 

was not successful at that point in my career in

:: 33:34

Corporate America not at all so you and again 

I I I I love your fashion um um ideas I mean

:: 33:42

when I first got the corporate America I had a 

cheap suit I had some shoes that needed to be

:: 33:47

shined you know I had a Raggedy belt okay and 

so so your your your idea of corporate America

:: 33:54

from a fashion standpoint is woo I I love it I 

love love it you were saying though you still

:: 34:01

you know wasn't um and I want to use the word 

complete you still didn't have a understanding

:: 34:07

of what it took to become successful in Corporate 

America so so where did you find that how did you

:: 34:14

find yourself because you know and look the the 

gym I met you know and in full transparency um

:: 34:22

you know I went to namic Executive leadership 

uh development program uh at the University of

:: 34:28

Virginia at Darden School of Business um which 

was an eight-month program which was great and

:: 34:35

then I think um one time one day they came in 

and said you're gonna meet this guy named Jim

:: 34:40

Jones James Jones and he's a life coach executive 

coach and you know uh we have I think we have a

:: 34:47

couple of them so we're going to split him up 

he's going to work with some of you guys and

:: 34:51

somebody else is going to work with some of the 

others I ended up getting the Short Straw yeah so

:: 35:00

I got Jim and it was one of the greatest 

experiences the greatest thing that that

:: 35:06

that happened to me I mean I learned so much 

from you you helped me understand my identity

:: 35:13

issues my sensitivity struggles and stuff to 

that nature so when I hear your story which

:: 35:20

is great right and then I'm hearing that Tony 

I was just I didn't even I was just doing stuff

:: 35:25

based on a whim I was didn't have no emotional 

you know uh uh sophistication when it came to

:: 35:31

emotional intelligence I wasn't mature enough 

you know I came to Corporate America and really

:: 35:36

didn't understand success and then I sat here and 

learned and and a bunch of my classmates you know

:: 35:42

Nicole uh excuse me Danielle Scarboro you know 

you know Nicole husband Sean they all love you

:: 35:50

we all have learned a lot from you so I want to 

dive into that you know you said hey I wasn't

:: 35:55

ready to become successful what what what what 

took you to that next level oh gosh that's so

:: 36:02

hard to answer because again there was not sort 

of a wake it was not like the time you know the

:: 36:08

telephone call to my mother I think over time 

you s of wake up or you go you know uh forever

:: 36:13

to sleep sort of thing and just coming coming to 

terms with my own authenticity if that makes any

:: 36:19

sense um coming to terms with my own need to to 

connect with what I was doing connect Who I Am

:: 36:30

with what I was doing and those are not the same 

things always uh and being at at at peace around

:: 36:35

all of that again it's a rich process I can't say 

that I'm there every day but I think I'm pretty

:: 36:40

close to being there for the most time even was 

just an an acceptance of that and also being in

:: 36:45

a in a in in even in a corporate environment where 

I felt validated I felt yeah grounded and all of

:: 36:55

that and it was simply my time to be there and 

and and and have that experience to me so when

:: 37:00

you say validated what what what what was the when 

you say validated like what do you mean validated

:: 37:06

for you what does that mean well I don't want to 

get too raw for your audience there but no no no

:: 37:11

no this is a black executive perspective we want 

to get wrong I I I don't don't play basketball

:: 37:17

and and all that things and I know I talk funny 

and I read Jane Austin novels and all of that and

:: 37:24

you know and and and and and in my mind feeling 

okay with all of that not only okay with it but

:: 37:32

feeling that okay this is my Center this defines 

me here it is take it or leave it can I shift and

:: 37:38

speak French if you speak French of course I can 

but at the end of the day I'm going to go back

:: 37:42

to being Jim Jones and it's going to be a welcome 

to you to join me there but I won't I won't there

:: 37:54

aspects of myself I was no longer willing to 

to to to to sacrifice for that and I think I

:: 37:59

must have been doing that again hindsight's 2020 

did I come to that in the middle of the night one

:: 38:05

day but over time uh I had to recognize that oh 

I was going to die quite frankly that I needed to

:: 38:11

make some to take a stand around my identities 

as it were you know there are several and and

:: 38:18

and and be okay around those and I am that is 

awesome my friend and listen I know you know as

:: 38:23

I'm listening to you I get goosebumps I'm you 

know know the audience there's a all there's a

:: 38:29

plenty of people who've been in that situation I 

can speak for myself you know I always felt that

:: 38:34

I I needed to you know be somebody else to be 

liked to be accepted to to to be successful and

:: 38:43

and I struggle just being me you know people see 

me as this gregarious you know fun you know high

:: 38:50

energy and at times I am that right but there 

and you and I chat you've helped me with this

:: 38:55

and there's times I'm just quiet I'm shy I don't 

want to say nothing to nobody I don't want to be

:: 39:00

B and you know I had to accept that so let me ask 

you this you know there's a lot of professionals

:: 39:09

that deal with with that that really peeling 

back the onion to see not only who they are

:: 39:18

but to accept who they are what recommendations 

would you have for them and again I don't want to

:: 39:25

be arrogant enough to to say to someone do this or 

do that uh because I don't think it's that easily

:: 39:32

packaged number one but a big part of it was 

understanding that this is who I am and I want

:: 39:38

to really spend some time and some courage around 

understanding that and and going as deep as I can

:: 39:44

with this this is what I do what's the alignment 

that's possible because there always going to be

:: 39:49

tradeoffs there there always going to be aspects 

of myself which I need to I'll be required to to

:: 39:57

place aside for a moment it's when it's becoming 

um a function of of placing aside and forgetting

:: 40:05

it and not going back to it and not reconnecting 

with it that I know I'm in trouble and you will

:: 40:09

be in trouble black white or indifferent that 

will happen and the pain will become such it

:: 40:14

can't balance it that's when the stress becomes 

distress and again I spoke of speaking French and

:: 40:19

France it's you know yeah a lot of these things 

are part of your tactic I know that tomorrow in

:: 40:25

order to be accepted by this audience and 

validated by these particular circumstances

:: 40:30

and and to be able to have that Propel me towards 

my goal my business goals I need to wear Burberry

:: 40:37

I need to wear telop it doesn't mean I'm not 

being who I am it's saying this is a strategy

:: 40:42

this is a tactic it's when the tactics and and the 

strategies overtake your sense of of of well-being

:: 40:49

that you're in trouble and it can happen I'm not 

saying on any given day but over time you can be

:: 40:55

so consumed by you know the the the aspect of it 

all so if I'm hearing I hate to simplify it but if

:: 41:01

I'm hear I'm hearing a b a word balance right 

because at the end of the day we you know let

:: 41:09

me back up for a second sure what I'm hearing 

is the I'm me well let me use me as example so

:: 41:17

Tony there's you are you however there's times 

where you need to from a strategic standpoint be

:: 41:26

able to do this right because this audience needs 

you to be this all right the challenge is is nine

:: 41:35

times out of 10 we get Lo we we we lose balance 

where now where I'm I'm placating this audience

:: 41:43

to be this I become that all the time and I 

forget my Center in terms of who I really am

:: 41:50

is that what I'm hearing Jim I definitely that's 

a part of it Antonio part of me is the work of

:: 41:54

that Center and and that's where the real work 

goes on once you're there and understand that

:: 42:00

and are are are are living in that Center of of 

values and and and and and your pain and whatever

:: 42:08

it may be you can do all the rest of that because 

that's what you do I'm going across to this place

:: 42:13

now what do I need to be successful there you've 

always got a you you always got a a choice then

:: 42:19

that's the other part of you will always have 

a choice now it's easy for me to sit here in my

:: 42:22

Brooklyn living room and talk about my choice and 

you've got two girls to put through College as it

:: 42:26

were but it's always a choice and there's always 

going to be a premium there's always going to be

:: 42:31

a premium there'll be a price tag on making some 

of those adjustments to be successful in corporate

:: 42:37

there'll be a premium on getting two um Imes in 

in in in self-investigation what's the price teag

:: 42:46

I'm willing to pay right right so you know you've 

worked at um you've been an executive coach um um

:: 42:57

life coach for for years now yes and obviously 

every human being is different and you work

:: 43:05

with a lot of people what some of the things that 

you've seen or you worked with you can keep it at

:: 43:10

a high level that you know professionals struggle 

with in terms of corporate America and their and

:: 43:17

their uh centered self I'm going to repeat myself 

here the the what I do versus who I am conundrum

:: 43:28

simplifying something that can be really really 

wrenching for people it really can again of old

:: 43:33

Stripes you know black white gay Strait you called 

it that what I do versus who I am and is the is

:: 43:40

the is the sacrifice to do this such that I am uh 

annihilating who I am that's all you got the end

:: 43:50

of the day I'm being incredibly simplistic and 

perhaps that's I'm being so simplistic because

:: 43:54

that's all I have to offer what I do who I 

Who I Am where can those L what's the work

:: 44:01

of getting those as much align as I can because 

some that you have any control over what you do

:: 44:06

have control over is to spend the the time to go 

deep and have the courage to say what I am this is

:: 44:15

who I am this is where I live and to say and you 

know what I'm going to find an appropriate way of

:: 44:21

sharing some of that with AA with those people I'm 

going to mechanism for bringing the what I am to

:: 44:29

what I do It's Tricky just strategic and tactical 

around it you know but I love that though because

:: 44:36

what you're saying is is that um it's important 

to yeah I I I got to do what I got to do but if

:: 44:43

I can start bringing who I am to what I'm to do 

what I got to do then I'm not going to get lost up

:: 44:50

in terms of what I got to do what I got to do my 

Center is still going to be there and it's going

:: 44:54

to be actually spilling over in terms of what I do 

what I got to do what I got to do correct I would

:: 45:02

say that more of what you are shows up anyway it 

just may be a blind spot and you want to again

:: 45:08

manage the narrative you want to understand what 

that's all about what's showing up about me that

:: 45:13

U others are experiencing and I want to understand 

what that experience of them is all about and of

:: 45:19

course you're going to get lost but you'll be 

able to find your way back because you'll know

:: 45:23

where you need to be and it's incredibly hard 

work and never never stops and something is

:: 45:27

always derailing you from that that course of 

accent so let me ask you this in terms of you

:: 45:35

know I I remember when you and I were chatting and 

uh I was telling you a story and I was saying you

:: 45:41

know one of the things I always struggle with 

um is that I expect people to treat me the way

:: 45:50

I treat them right if I'm doing the right things 

to those individuals they see it and I'm expecting

:: 45:59

in return that they do the exact same thing and 

then I was looking for a sympathetic ear because

:: 46:05

I was like this should be just this should be 

just simple right and I was explaining that to

:: 46:09

you and you looked at me and said Tony you can't 

control what they do to you right can you talk

:: 46:15

a little bit about that because I thought that 

was eye openening for me well you just said it

:: 46:19

Tony there good luck with your expectations but 

it's also who that said I'm also not responsible

:: 46:28

for what you think about me either so there 

Comes This Moment you go you know I'm doing

:: 46:31

as best I can and it's authentically as I can 

and as in alignment with our goals and our our

:: 46:39

our our our shared outcomes as I can beyond that 

okay and again I'm being overly overly simplistic

:: 46:48

because I have nobody to take care of but me and 

my you know my Whole Foods Bill and those other

:: 46:53

considerations and complex aspects of Life all 

kick in but still at the end of the day this is

:: 46:59

it I'm doing as best I can I'm as confident as 

I can I'm as authentic as I can and again what

:: 47:05

I hoped we picked up on was that you've said it 

as well as I could possibly you have no way of

:: 47:11

knowing what I perceive from you you have no way 

of knowing what I need from you unless we built

:: 47:16

the kind of relationship and I've understood 

myself well enough and I'm courageous enough

:: 47:21

with myself that I say Tony this is what I need 

from you the moment Look to You to satisfy that

:: 47:27

need I'm in big trouble your dear wife your lovely 

children double A none of us can do that for you

:: 47:35

that core need you have to do for yourself it's a 

lonely place to be but that's all you got because

:: 47:42

the moment you get to that place where you take 

responsibility for those core needs the rest is

:: 47:49

going to fall into place it's going to fall into 

the place it was meant to fall into right right so

:: 47:55

in other words you know be satisfied with what 

you do who you are and don't worry about what

:: 48:02

other people do and or more importantly what they 

don't do do you mind if I give a different slight

:: 48:08

shading to that please please my friend about 

satisfaction be sure of the work you're doing

:: 48:17

to be as much Tony Franklin as you can the most 

authentic Tony Franklin the most self-aware Tony

:: 48:23

Franklin the most grounded Tony Franklin that 

you can be the other has to at the end of the

:: 48:30

day take care of itself it may not take care of 

itself in the way that you might have you know

:: 48:36

put in your you know your fiveyear plan but Tony 

it's all you got the the the other side of that

:: 48:41

is just a lot of pain it may be an extra trip 

to to uh Martha's Vineyard but what you got at

:: 48:47

the end of the day and again I'm not knocking any 

of that those are wonderful things to have this

:: 48:51

is the man with the Burberry remember that it's 

is it really worth the the the the the the wear

:: 49:00

and tear on you on your relationships on your 

sense of selfworth maybe I say that because I

:: 49:06

never had those things but uh not you know you 

know the the the Martha's Vineyard at home but

:: 49:11

uh I I can't I have to believe that that's where 

it starts and that's where that's that's what the

:: 49:17

journey is all about going from you to you I read 

in a book somewhere a quote that I thought was so

:: 49:22

powerful is who am I and what would it take to 

be I am that was powerful stuff very powerful

:: 49:28

that is powerful and and and and piggybacking on 

that the road from me to me and ultimately to me

:: 49:37

how do you how do you define that what does that 

mean I don't know it sounded good when I wrote

:: 49:42

it you know what I mean Jane Austin that day and 

I thought that's kind of cool hey hey so are you

:: 49:51

smart if I put it like that so are are are you 

are you no matter what you went through or no

:: 49:58

matter what I go through or no matter what 

doublea goes through or our audience the the

:: 50:04

journeys the ups and downs the indecisions the 

decisions that's you absolutely is and that's

:: 50:13

a lonely thing sometime to accept but it still 

is what it is it still is what it is and again

:: 50:18

you want love in your life you want Connection in 

your life you want access to others in your life

:: 50:24

of course and have them access to you but at the 

end of the day it's all about the work you doing

:: 50:31

about Tony Franklin about dable a about Jim Joe 

just all we got it's not always a scary thing to

:: 50:36

have to to contemplate but there it is let let 

me let me throw this at you one of the things

:: 50:43

that we struggle with uh and you said this word 

a few times um self-aware a self-awareness one

:: 50:51

of the things that we struggle with there's 

a lot of people who are not self-aware Ware

:: 50:56

or they when they look in the mirror they are 

self-aware but they don't like what they see

:: 51:02

oh and not that right and then they go back to 

going back to your point about being who you

:: 51:07

need to be for a certain audience they rather 

being that Arena yeah versus being in their

:: 51:14

own looking in the mirror Arena what would you 

say to those individuals okay I'm I'm just not

:: 51:19

want to give advice because I struggle I get 

it I get it I get it it's it's it's again to

:: 51:25

repeat myself it's all you got it's all you 

got and if you can do play that other do that

:: 51:31

other thing without causing yourself infinite 

pain great be successful there but at the end

:: 51:41

of the day what do you have to go back to 

what is the work you've done to say I live

:: 51:47

here and I'm grateful for living there ah yeah I 

mean listen it it can be yeah well you know what

:: 51:59

at the end of the day I think you know and 

that's why I'm so excited that you're here

:: 52:04

just being able to reflect look back I mean you 

sharing your story today and you're like look it

:: 52:09

took me years to look back and say I wasn't 

here or I wasn't ready for this or you know

:: 52:15

I was making decisions based on this or calling 

your mother up and saying hey guess what I know

:: 52:20

I'm gone I know I'm you know a grown man now and 

living abroad or whatever but guess what I just

:: 52:26

want to let you know I got you I know what you 

were going through I know what you were dealing

:: 52:31

with right so I guess those light bulbs uh come 

up uh you know come bright at some point in our

:: 52:38

lives and more importantly when they do come 

bright we acknowledge them yes well my friend

:: 52:46

go ahead finish your thought you want to make 

sure when you get back home you are there for

:: 52:50

you how about that that is that is awesome so 

tell me what the future holds for you huh don't

:: 52:59

know future defined in what I'll have for dinner 

this afternoon or I'm a coach as I say I love my

:: 53:05

work uh you know we we're always hoping for you 

know that next fascinating interesting contract

:: 53:11

we all do that we may say we don't but we do but 

I'm very grateful uh so one of the things you and

:: 53:18

I I wanted to ask you about this and I forgot you 

were able to meet James Balwin is that correct I

:: 53:23

did tell us tell us about that experience when the 

last time I went to Europe to stay any period of

:: 53:29

time I'd gone over I already knew that I was going 

to go back to business school but I had uh I some

:: 53:36

producers came over from Paris and they were 

looking for and I heard about this through you

:: 53:40

know my former Arts uh Network they were looking 

for a young black African-American male who spoke

:: 53:48

fluent French and who had a background in music 

I thought I got this y'all and being New York of

:: 53:56

course you go and there's a there's a there's 

a line five you know five blocks long of all

:: 54:02

descriptions and you go how you gonna be black 

but you know what you hire me and I'll figure

:: 54:08

that out and I'm not mad at somehow got job 

he said it was a line so long all the way down

:: 54:15

New York not know that that's that whole acting 

World anyway I I did get that role so I went over

:: 54:21

to Europe and was there for six months in Paris 

narrated a a show called The Gospel Caravan and

:: 54:28

uh James bwood had written it in conjunction with 

a French author by the name of malol Y and it was

:: 54:34

about the history of gospel music and they so 

they had brought up all these gospel stars and

:: 54:40

who through through music told the story of gospel 

and I narrated it in French so that was wow and he

:: 54:47

came to some of the early rehearsals he did 

indeed did you guys hang out at all oh yeah

:: 54:51

right I mean you made it you were right there 

I figed that you would be able to hang out with

:: 54:57

him I don't think

:: 55:02

so very funny oh well look my friend 

it's been a blessing to have you on um

:: 55:11

final thoughts for the audience 

where do you want to leave the

:: 55:13

audience know be you cuz ain't nobody else out 

there has occupied that particular booth well

:: 55:26

I can tell you this you were you tonight and 

really appreciate it you've been a blessing in

:: 55:31

my life and I can imagine to countless hundreds 

of others you've really touched a lot of people

:: 55:37

in terms of helping them self-identify deal 

with the minutia that we all deal with in our

:: 55:42

head so I love you a lot you you I'm a big fan 

of yours and listen if somebody's listening to

:: 55:48

this and they like hey I love I would love to 

connect with Jim Jones and sit down and just

:: 55:54

you know chat about you know myself and Corporate 

America and how I can you know take my game to the

:: 56:00

next level where would they be able to reach 

you probably the best is at LinkedIn James C

:: 56:04

Jones and you'll see my company name there and 

reach out I would love to have that conversation

:: 56:10

well I hope they do um because at the end of the 

day you like I said are fantastic I'm glad we're

:: 56:17

friends as it's been a blessing my friend so 

thanks a lot for appearing and sharing your

:: 56:24

story as well as you know a lot of great uh 

antidotes and Solutions on a black executive

:: 56:29

perspective podcast thanks to you both God 

bless have a wonderful holiday awesome thank

:: 56:36

you so I hope you enjoyed today's episode the 

road from me to me and ultimately to me with

:: 56:45

Jim Jones he was fantastic outstanding loved 

that he shared his story and then obviously

:: 56:52

he talked about the self-discovery that he had 

um which was great so based on that I'm going

:: 56:58

to go into Tony's tidbit and today's tidbit is 

by Miles Monroe the greatest discovery in life

:: 57:06

is self-discovery until you find yourself you will 

always be someone else always be yourself and that

:: 57:16

was by Miles Monroe so thanks again for tuning 

in to another uh episode of a black executive

:: 57:23

perspective podcast please go to our website at a 

www a black executive perspective podcast to sign

:: 57:29

up for updates uh we're going to be launching 

our monthly newsletter soon please leave us a

:: 57:35

review how did you like this episode how did you 

like Jim do you have additional questions for Jim

:: 57:42

please don't hesitate to give us a rating and if 

you haven't subscribed to our podcast wherever

:: 57:48

you're able to listen to your podcast follow us 

on our socials at LinkedIn X Instagram YouTube at

:: 57:58

Tony tidbit be for our great guest Jim C Jones 

our executive producer doublea I'm Tony tidbit

:: 58:11

I love you a lot we talked about it now we're 

out thank you for tuning in to this episode of

:: 58:18

Tony tidbit a black executive perspective and 

for joining in today's conversation with every

:: 58:25

story We Share every conversation we Foster 

and every barrier we address we can ignite the

:: 58:32

Sparks that bring about lasting change and this 

carries us one step closer to transforming the

:: 58:38

face of corporate America if today's episode 

resonated with you consider subscribing and

:: 58:44

leaving us a reading or review on Apple podcast 

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:: 58:52

this episode with your circle and with your 

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:: 58:57

stories