The Illusion of Power: Challenges Faced by Black Women Executives

Speaker: 00:00:00

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: If you are

at the same level, uh, you know,

2

: 00:00:02

you're seeing your counterparts,

you've been given a role.

3

: 00:00:04

You're making half the money that

they're making your, or maybe you're

4

: 00:00:07

making the same money, but you're given

half the budget that they're given,

5

: 00:00:10

but you're expected to produce at the

same level that they are producing.

6

: 00:00:15

You're setting me up for failure.

7

: 00:00:17

And you're doing it based

on it's intersectionality.

8

: 00:00:22

You're, you're looking at me as a woman,

you're looking at me as a woman of color.

9

: 00:00:24

And you're looking at, and

you're looking at these things as

10

: 00:00:26

weaknesses when actually you should

be looking at them as strengths.

11

: 00:00:31

Tony Tidbit: We'll discuss race and how it

plays a factor and how we didn't even talk

12

: 00:00:35

about this topic because we were afraid.

13

: 00:00:39

A

14

: 00:00:39

Narrator: Black

15

: 00:00:40

Tony Tidbit: Executive Perspective.

16

: 00:00:41

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective

podcast, a safe space where we

17

: 00:00:45

discuss all matters related to race,

especially race in corporate America.

18

: 00:00:49

I'm your host, Tony Tidbit.

19

: 00:00:51

So first we want to thank W.

20

: 00:00:53

W.

21

: 00:00:54

N.

22

: 00:00:54

H.

23

: 00:00:54

U.

24

: 00:00:55

88.

25

: 00:00:55

7 on the Richter dial.

26

: 00:00:57

We're here in their podcast room

at the University of New Haven.

27

: 00:01:01

So really appreciate being here

their hospitality And really love

28

: 00:01:07

the love that they share with a

black executive perspective podcast.

29

: 00:01:10

So thank you WNHU and then also don't

forget to check out our partners CODE

30

: 00:01:17

M magazine whose mission is saving the

black family By first saving the black

31

: 00:01:22

man, check them out at CodeMMagazine.

32

: 00:01:26

com.

33

: 00:01:29

So, . The significant yet often overlooked

challenges faced by black women ascending

34

: 00:01:36

to leadership roles can undermine

their authority and effectiveness.

35

: 00:01:41

Despite breaking through glass ceilings,

these leaders encounter unique hurdles.

36

: 00:01:46

Today's guest, Sonja Hayes McNaughton,

founder and CEO of Discovering

37

: 00:01:51

Eden, will delve into these issues

and explore potential solutions.

38

: 00:01:57

To overcome them.

39

: 00:01:59

Sonia Hayes McNaughton.

40

: 00:02:01

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective.

41

: 00:02:03

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Thank

you so much for having me, Tony.

42

: 00:02:05

Happy to be here.

43

: 00:02:06

Tony Tidbit: I'm so glad you're here.

44

: 00:02:07

And, you know, as you guys know, we're

in again, uh, the University of New

45

: 00:02:11

Haven podcast studio, Sonia came all

the way down here from New Jersey.

46

: 00:02:15

She's all, look at her.

47

: 00:02:16

She's all dolled up.

48

: 00:02:17

She's ready to be able to come and

talk about a very important topic.

49

: 00:02:22

That's not spoken a lot about, so

I can't wait to hear her expertise.

50

: 00:02:27

And we're going to dive into, you

know, the challenges black women

51

: 00:02:30

leaders face and how to overcome them.

52

: 00:02:32

But first we want to learn a

little bit more about Sonia.

53

: 00:02:36

So Sonia, tell us a little

bit about your background.

54

: 00:02:39

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Sure.

55

: 00:02:40

Um, I, I'll start, I guess

with my, Oh, I'm from New York.

56

: 00:02:43

I am in New York at heart.

57

: 00:02:44

I live in New Jersey.

58

: 00:02:45

Now, like you said, I am a first

generation, um, Belizean American.

59

: 00:02:50

My family is from Belize and,

um, I'm the youngest of four.

60

: 00:02:54

Um, And, uh, I'm now the mother of three.

61

: 00:02:57

Wow.

62

: 00:02:58

Three big kids and I have a

wonderful husband as well.

63

: 00:03:01

And I have had a, um, I won't use

the word illustrious, but I've had

64

: 00:03:05

a blessed career in, um, marketing.

65

: 00:03:09

It's okay to say illustrious.

66

: 00:03:10

Tony Tidbit: So we don't, we don't,

we don't build ourselves up enough.

67

: 00:03:14

That's true.

68

: 00:03:14

You're right about that.

69

: 00:03:15

It's all good.

70

: 00:03:16

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

You're right about that.

71

: 00:03:17

I've had a really I've had a lustrous

career in marketing and, um, my background

72

: 00:03:21

is I have a degree in undergraduate

undergraduate degree in organizational

73

: 00:03:26

management and a graduate degree in

strategic leadership and communications,

74

: 00:03:31

which kind of, um, it's a twofold.

75

: 00:03:34

It segwayed me into marketing, but it's

also segwayed me into having my own in

76

: 00:03:39

my own company for corporate training

for executive leadership for women.

77

: 00:03:44

Tony Tidbit: That's that is awesome.

78

: 00:03:45

Great background.

79

: 00:03:46

You know, I love that.

80

: 00:03:48

So tell us a little bit about

Discovering Eden your company.

81

: 00:03:51

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I'm sure

Discovering Eden is um, I like to

82

: 00:03:54

consider us, uh change agents We are

all about empowering high achieving

83

: 00:04:00

high performing women of color.

84

: 00:04:02

Actually women

85

: 00:04:03

overall

86

: 00:04:04

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: But we do place

a heavy emphasis on women of color, uh,

87

: 00:04:07

and we just prepare them, uh, with the

proper tools, whether it's networking, uh,

88

: 00:04:12

community, uh, of like minded individuals,

programs, executive leadership.

89

: 00:04:17

If you are, uh, at executive

level, maybe if you are, you know.

90

: 00:04:21

In the C suite, and you're leading

an enterprise, and you need to

91

: 00:04:23

have a better understanding of

what it truly means to embrace DEI

92

: 00:04:28

uh, we, we have problems for that.

93

: 00:04:30

And then we also have programs just for,

uh, you know, women who are trying to.

94

: 00:04:35

Uh, facilitate or plan out

their trajectory for their

95

: 00:04:41

career in leadership, rather.

96

: 00:04:43

And so you can be in midline management

or you can be in senior management,

97

: 00:04:46

but it's really helping them with

their professional development skills,

98

: 00:04:49

whether that's, you know, soft skills,

some technical skills, or even things

99

: 00:04:53

like, um, uh, imposter syndrome.

100

: 00:04:56

You know, training on that.

101

: 00:04:57

So if you're in midline management,

we have programs that will help you

102

: 00:05:00

kind of navigate imposter syndrome,

or if you need executive presence,

103

: 00:05:04

but, you know, reinforcements or how

to have influence in the workplace,

104

: 00:05:09

or if you need just some training.

105

: 00:05:11

Just to have a board seat

if you want to join board.

106

: 00:05:13

So we have a number of different programs,

workshops, webinars, and we also have a

107

: 00:05:19

curated library where you can just find

resources, whether it's case studies or

108

: 00:05:24

just other thought leadership pieces that

you could use to glean from and use for

109

: 00:05:28

best practices or just to enhance your.

110

: 00:05:31

You know, your professional development.

111

: 00:05:33

Tony Tidbit: Wow.

112

: 00:05:33

I mean, that's insane.

113

: 00:05:34

There's a lot of stuff that you

end up helping leaders overcome.

114

: 00:05:38

And so real quick, what, what made

you want to start your own business?

115

: 00:05:43

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I, I spent

About 20 years in corporate America.

116

: 00:05:48

And like I said, it's been illustrious.

117

: 00:05:50

I was blessed, but I also found that

there were some, um, there were some,

118

: 00:05:56

I don't need to reward glitches, but

there were some, there were some moments

119

: 00:06:00

that I felt I was at a disadvantage.

120

: 00:06:02

So, um, and I, and I, and I feel like

some of that was due to not only my

121

: 00:06:07

gender, but obviously to my, you know,

the fact that I'm a minority woman.

122

: 00:06:12

Right.

123

: 00:06:12

And so, uh, you know, after I, after I.

124

: 00:06:15

20 years in the business.

125

: 00:06:19

I then decided I wanted to help

other women who might be struggling

126

: 00:06:22

in the same way that I did.

127

: 00:06:24

Right.

128

: 00:06:24

So when I say struggle, I mean,

you know, things that may have

129

: 00:06:27

taken me 15 years to achieve.

130

: 00:06:28

I feel like I might've been able to

achieve that maybe in seven years.

131

: 00:06:31

And so if I would have done things

differently, or if I had the advocates in

132

: 00:06:34

place or something of that nature, as I

want to be that kind of a servant leader.

133

: 00:06:38

You know, to help others to really get

to where they're trying to go faster

134

: 00:06:42

and, um, and, and, and smoother.

135

: 00:06:44

It was complicated.

136

: 00:06:45

Tony Tidbit: I love it.

137

: 00:06:45

I love it.

138

: 00:06:46

And that's what we need more

of serving leaders, right?

139

: 00:06:48

That's the key phrase that

you said is servant leaders.

140

: 00:06:52

And I don't think that a lot of.

141

: 00:06:55

Leaders know what really

being a leader is.

142

: 00:06:58

It's not a title.

143

: 00:06:59

Uh, it's about being a

servant and serving others.

144

: 00:07:02

So we're going to

definitely get into that.

145

: 00:07:04

So my girl seemed like number

one, I'm excited because we see

146

: 00:07:08

what we got the right person here

to talk about this topic, right?

147

: 00:07:12

So this is awesome, right?

148

: 00:07:13

So you're ready to talk about it.

149

: 00:07:15

All right, let's talk about it.

150

: 00:07:16

All right.

151

: 00:07:16

So now listen, before we get into the deep

end of the pool, all right, you didn't

152

: 00:07:23

get to where you are just overnight.

153

: 00:07:27

Tell us a little bit about the

influence of your family, your

154

: 00:07:30

early life, you know, and how that

shaped you to where you are today.

155

: 00:07:34

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So yeah,

I come from a strong Christian

156

: 00:07:39

faith family, my parents.

157

: 00:07:42

And so if anything, um, I think that,

you know, that has taught me about

158

: 00:07:47

dedication and loyalty, commitment.

159

: 00:07:50

Um, serving others.

160

: 00:07:52

So those are, are, are all

values that were embedded in me.

161

: 00:07:57

And I think the other thing is that

my parents coming from another country

162

: 00:08:02

and you have that American dream and

you get here, you want to get that

163

: 00:08:05

good job and stick with it for 35

years and get the package and retire.

164

: 00:08:10

And, you know, so that lends itself

to the commitment that I spoke about.

165

: 00:08:15

Um, it does not lend itself to

entrepreneurship, but it did, um,

166

: 00:08:19

instill those good hardcore values

in me that take you far, whether you

167

: 00:08:24

were an entrepreneur or just, you

know, working for another corporation.

168

: 00:08:27

So I think that's how my family kind

of my upbringing played into it.

169

: 00:08:32

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, it seems like the,

the, the discipline of hard work, right?

170

: 00:08:38

Even though it wasn't about

entrepreneurship, it was still

171

: 00:08:42

about getting up every morning.

172

: 00:08:43

Yeah.

173

: 00:08:43

Bring in it every day, regardless

of how you felt, regardless of

174

: 00:08:47

what the circumstances said,

regardless, you had to do that.

175

: 00:08:50

So if I'm hearing you correctly, that is

like the root of one of the things that

176

: 00:08:54

your parents basically provided you.

177

: 00:08:56

Is that correct?

178

: 00:08:57

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: It absolutely is.

179

: 00:08:58

And, and, I mean, just An example, when

my father retired and they gave him

180

: 00:09:02

his file, I think he had like over 200

and something, um, vacation days and

181

: 00:09:07

sick time that he never took, right?

182

: 00:09:09

That is, that's dedication.

183

: 00:09:10

Right.

184

: 00:09:11

So, we, we were, that was instilled.

185

: 00:09:13

Hard work, do what you have to

do, be a person of your word.

186

: 00:09:16

And, um, I mean, those are just,

they, they, they don't get old.

187

: 00:09:19

Those values just don't get old.

188

: 00:09:21

Tony Tidbit: They're the

fundamentals of life, right?

189

: 00:09:23

And if you follow the

fundamentals, Guess what?

190

: 00:09:26

They don't fail, right?

191

: 00:09:27

They'll pass the centuries of time.

192

: 00:09:30

Yep.

193

: 00:09:30

So based on that, tell us a little bit

about your first Racial turning point.

194

: 00:09:36

Oh,

195

: 00:09:37

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I remember.

196

: 00:09:39

And then there have been a few, but

the, the first one, it was in: 2001

197

: 00:09:46

I was in a meeting and, uh, it was some,

so some, some of us were in the meeting

198

: 00:09:52

and physically, and then there was some

on the conference line, conference line.

199

: 00:09:56

And one gentleman that was online, I

didn't know him personally, but I had

200

: 00:10:00

a feeling that he was a man of color.

201

: 00:10:06

On.

202

: 00:10:07

On the, um, yeah, on the call, someone

referenced him with the N word, right?

203

: 00:10:16

Tony Tidbit: So let me just back up.

204

: 00:10:18

Yeah.

205

: 00:10:19

Conference call.

206

: 00:10:19

Yeah.

207

: 00:10:20

At work.

208

: 00:10:22

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

And I'm making a mistake.

209

: 00:10:23

He was not on the call.

210

: 00:10:24

They referenced him, but he was not on.

211

: 00:10:26

So they

212

: 00:10:26

Tony Tidbit: were

213

: 00:10:26

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

talking about him.

214

: 00:10:28

About him.

215

: 00:10:28

Tony Tidbit: And he

216

: 00:10:29

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

wasn't on the call.

217

: 00:10:30

He wasn't on the call.

218

: 00:10:31

And then they use the N word.

219

: 00:10:33

But the people that were on the call

did not know that I was in The room I

220

: 00:10:37

was the only black person in the room.

221

: 00:10:39

So they're under the assumption.

222

: 00:10:41

I'm assumed, you know that that

there is it's just there's no

223

: 00:10:44

minorities in the room so they

can say this word freely, right?

224

: 00:10:48

This

225

: 00:10:48

Tony Tidbit: is before zoom.

226

: 00:10:49

Oh, yeah, it's before team.

227

: 00:10:51

Right?

228

: 00:10:51

So it's just a regular speaker phone.

229

: 00:10:53

Yeah, people talking.

230

: 00:10:55

And they didn't know you were in the room.

231

: 00:10:56

So what happened?

232

: 00:10:57

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And so they

used the word, I thought I heard

233

: 00:10:59

it, but part of me was, I must have

misheard that couldn't have been what

234

: 00:11:02

it was, but I knew what it was because

immediately after the meeting was over,

235

: 00:11:07

uh, two of the managers scoped me up

and they took me in our office and

236

: 00:11:12

they wanted to explain that this is not

the typical way that business is done.

237

: 00:11:16

You know, they can't believe that

this was said and, and they wanted

238

: 00:11:19

to kind of scoop it under the rug.

239

: 00:11:22

I allowed that to happen.

240

: 00:11:24

Right?

241

: 00:11:24

You know, it was very early in my career.

242

: 00:11:27

I was stunned that that had happened

in a corporate working, you know, here

243

: 00:11:31

are things when you're in school, but

I didn't know how to respond to it.

244

: 00:11:35

Um, and they, you know, they apologized

profusely but it left a stench.

245

: 00:11:42

It lingered.

246

: 00:11:43

Tony Tidbit: How did that make you feel?

247

: 00:11:44

Even though that was your first

experience in corporate America?

248

: 00:11:47

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: It made

me feel different And I already

249

: 00:11:51

knew I was different, but it made

me and it definitely confirmed for

250

: 00:11:56

me that this gentleman was a man of

color and it made me feel a little

251

: 00:12:00

bit confused because It perplexed.

252

: 00:12:03

I did not know how I didn't know

how what the right way was to just

253

: 00:12:06

I felt scared to speak up about it

254

: 00:12:09

Tony Tidbit: or

255

: 00:12:09

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: challenge it.

256

: 00:12:11

Tony Tidbit: I

257

: 00:12:11

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

let them apologize.

258

: 00:12:12

And I left it alone.

259

: 00:12:13

In hindsight, I could have gone to

human resources, I could have taken it

260

: 00:12:17

to a higher level, I could have done,

I could have amplified my voice more

261

: 00:12:22

to, you know, bring some awareness to

because that shouldn't be happening.

262

: 00:12:25

But I didn't do that.

263

: 00:12:26

But it's, you know, what

was the lesson in it?

264

: 00:12:28

I learned in that.

265

: 00:12:30

That's one of the learn, one of the

learning, learning lessons that you

266

: 00:12:35

have to use your voice or else you're

perpetuating, your silence can be,

267

: 00:12:39

can perpetuate this type of behavior.

268

: 00:12:41

Tony Tidbit: Right.

269

: 00:12:42

Did you, in that situation, well, at that

company, did you, um, because obviously

270

: 00:12:49

this ain't the first time they did that.

271

: 00:12:50

No.

272

: 00:12:51

Right.

273

: 00:12:51

So did you see any more of

that while you were there?

274

: 00:12:55

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I personally.

275

: 00:12:59

Maybe covertly, you know, um, not

the way that that had happened.

276

: 00:13:03

I think they were very

careful with me after that.

277

: 00:13:06

Very, very well politically correct.

278

: 00:13:09

So I did not experience that afterwards,

but I, you know, you see micro aggressions

279

: 00:13:16

and other ways, but I honestly, I feel

like that company does stand by, the

280

: 00:13:23

company does stand by, you know, being.

281

: 00:13:27

You know, they're renowned,

they're global, they're,

282

: 00:13:29

they're a good organization.

283

: 00:13:31

I don't think that that's how

they were operating maybe at that

284

: 00:13:34

level, but, um, it got murky.

285

: 00:13:39

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, so you mind

if I, um, you mind if I push

286

: 00:13:44

back on that a little bit?

287

: 00:13:46

Um, and I know what you mean saying that

they're a globally known organization,

288

: 00:13:52

that'll make them a great organization.

289

: 00:13:54

If they can use racial epithets.

290

: 00:14:00

Regarding their employees and

nobody's held accountable.

291

: 00:14:05

Okay, accountable.

292

: 00:14:07

They ushered you to the side and tried

to get you to sweep it under the rug.

293

: 00:14:11

Right?

294

: 00:14:12

Did that person get fired?

295

: 00:14:13

No.

296

: 00:14:14

Did that person, you see my point here?

297

: 00:14:16

So that to me, they're not reputable.

298

: 00:14:19

Okay?

299

: 00:14:20

They're doing what most

companies do in these situations.

300

: 00:14:25

And, you know, at the end of the day,

that's why we have this podcast to talk

301

: 00:14:28

about these things and make people aware

because a lot of times people are not,

302

: 00:14:31

they don't recognize these things go on.

303

: 00:14:33

And then when they hear, you know,

African American or people of color speak

304

: 00:14:37

up, they're like, Oh, they whinning it.

305

: 00:14:39

They're complaining.

306

: 00:14:40

They're this and not, because if we all

was speaking up, And this is one of the

307

: 00:14:44

learning lessons that you said, right?

308

: 00:14:45

Yeah.

309

: 00:14:45

Right.

310

: 00:14:46

That you learned.

311

: 00:14:47

I should have said something, I

should have went to hr, I should have

312

: 00:14:49

did this, I should have did that.

313

: 00:14:51

If everybody was doing that consistently,

then there'll be on notice and you

314

: 00:14:57

would, you wouldn't see a lot of

these things and you'd be training

315

: 00:14:59

in all different type of things.

316

: 00:15:00

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And I need,

and I need to, and I need to own where

317

: 00:15:03

my responsibility lied with that.

318

: 00:15:05

Right.

319

: 00:15:06

I, I think because I, it was very early

in my career, I was very, very young.

320

: 00:15:10

You are so happy to have the opportunity

you almost, you almost yourself feel like

321

: 00:15:18

you don't, you may not belong there, you

know, because this is, this is the way the

322

: 00:15:25

world right this is how you're, you know,

people think or the, the, the oppression

323

: 00:15:30

that that has kind of grown up with us or,

or it's been forced upon us, I would say.

324

: 00:15:35

Um, so.

325

: 00:15:38

That I want to give myself the grace

that little bit of grace and say I

326

: 00:15:42

think it was my youth at my inexperience

Yeah, so so there's no you know,

327

: 00:15:48

Tony Tidbit: this is not

this is not about you.

328

: 00:15:50

All right, it's not about

holding you accountable, right?

329

: 00:15:54

One thing I want to, I want to jump

on before we go, um, to somewhere

330

: 00:15:58

else is that when you took that job,

were you thinking about race when

331

: 00:16:05

you, when you walked in the door?

332

: 00:16:07

Not at all.

333

: 00:16:07

Not at all, right?

334

: 00:16:08

You didn't come in with a chip on

your shoulder saying, you know, I

335

: 00:16:11

hope they, you know, don't beat me up

or I hope they, you know, accept me.

336

: 00:16:14

You came in to do a job.

337

: 00:16:16

Yep.

338

: 00:16:17

Right.

339

: 00:16:17

So that race was the furthest

thing from your mind.

340

: 00:16:21

Right.

341

: 00:16:21

Then all of a sudden the

world Reminded you about race.

342

: 00:16:26

Is that correct?

343

: 00:16:27

You know ugly way to use the n word.

344

: 00:16:29

That's an ugly way to

exactly exactly, right?

345

: 00:16:32

So speaking of that, let's let's let's

jettison a little bit right because

346

: 00:16:36

you know black women leaders Okay,

and you know at the end of the day,

347

: 00:16:42

I don't think everybody understands

what intersectionality means You Okay.

348

: 00:16:47

Um, you know, to be fair, I, I didn't know

what it means to like a year or two ago.

349

: 00:16:52

Right.

350

: 00:16:53

And, and then once you

hear it, it makes sense.

351

: 00:16:55

Right.

352

: 00:16:56

And so can you speak to a little bit

about intersectionality and then talk a

353

: 00:17:00

little bit about how that affects, uh, the

female black leader in corporate America?

354

: 00:17:07

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So,

intersectionality has existed

355

: 00:17:10

forever, but the term probably was

not coined until more recently.

356

: 00:17:15

And it really just means that

there are more layers to this,

357

: 00:17:19

the identity of the person.

358

: 00:17:20

So, for me, um, I am a woman,

and I am a trans woman.

359

: 00:17:26

Woman of color so that's just two things

right we could layer in a things like

360

: 00:17:30

denomination or All the things that

describes not single access everything

361

: 00:17:37

they describe that just that that I

didn't you know, I didn't identify

362

: 00:17:40

who you are so the way that I think it

can be a disadvantage for you in the

363

: 00:17:47

workplace is We tend to get marginalized

or they want us to kind of conform.

364

: 00:17:54

Into, um, stereotypes, narrow,

narrow stereotypes, right.

365

: 00:18:00

Stereotypes that they have

created for us, right.

366

: 00:18:03

I hate the stereotype, but it, it, it.

367

: 00:18:05

It's always out there.

368

: 00:18:06

The end.

369

: 00:18:06

If you speak up, you're an angry

black woman, black man, too.

370

: 00:18:11

Well, I guess, but no, no, no, no.

371

: 00:18:12

I'm not.

372

: 00:18:13

Tony Tidbit: But no, no, you're

100 percent right, right?

373

: 00:18:15

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

But does that happen?

374

: 00:18:16

Not been a tons of conference rooms

and meetings where there are tons

375

: 00:18:19

of women or white women or men.

376

: 00:18:25

Go ahead.

377

: 00:18:25

Keep

378

: 00:18:25

Tony Tidbit: talking.

379

: 00:18:27

Don't stop now.

380

: 00:18:29

Speak it up.

381

: 00:18:30

Speak up.

382

: 00:18:31

They're running.

383

: 00:18:32

They're running the conference room.

384

: 00:18:35

They're the leader, right?

385

: 00:18:36

And to be fair, in my opinion,

they did nothing wrong.

386

: 00:18:40

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

Okay, they didn't.

387

: 00:18:41

They didn't, right?

388

: 00:18:42

Some of them are admired or revered or,

you know, they're, you know, strong and

389

: 00:18:48

they assert their authority the right way.

390

: 00:18:51

Tony Tidbit: But then when

a black woman does it, what?

391

: 00:18:53

We are angry.

392

: 00:18:55

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Okay?

393

: 00:18:56

We are angry.

394

: 00:18:57

And um, and I'm not saying

that we aren't sometimes.

395

: 00:19:00

Maybe we are.

396

: 00:19:01

But that doesn't define who we are.

397

: 00:19:03

We don't get to be called every time

we have, every time we challenge you.

398

: 00:19:08

Doesn't make us an angry black women.

399

: 00:19:09

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, and

I would say this too.

400

: 00:19:11

I don't so, you know, and I hear

you a point where you say maybe we

401

: 00:19:15

are but I don't that's not it's not

that okay at the end of the day.

402

: 00:19:20

Um, it's a stereotype to

diminish people of color.

403

: 00:19:25

Right.

404

: 00:19:26

Women, um, to, uh, knock

their leadership abilities.

405

: 00:19:31

If the same person, um, that was white

said the exact same thing with the

406

: 00:19:36

same type of passion, same type of

level of, of, of, of, of, from a vocal

407

: 00:19:41

audio standpoint, same type of level

to your point, they'd be revealed.

408

: 00:19:45

She ain't taking no junk today,

or you don't want to play with,

409

: 00:19:49

you know, a double way because

when he, you better get it done.

410

: 00:19:52

Right.

411

: 00:19:53

Those things are like great leaders.

412

: 00:19:55

When a woman, a black woman,

person of color says that they're

413

: 00:19:59

angry, they're aggressive.

414

: 00:20:01

Okay, there we because

they want us to be docile.

415

: 00:20:05

Yes.

416

: 00:20:06

Okay, because we should just

be happy that we're here.

417

: 00:20:09

Exactly.

418

: 00:20:09

Speak to so so go further on to the

intersectionality and how it affects.

419

: 00:20:14

Women of color,

420

: 00:20:16

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: you know,

there's a number of things that can

421

: 00:20:18

demean your, your, your self esteem.

422

: 00:20:21

Um, if you are at the same level,

uh, you know, when you're seeing your

423

: 00:20:25

counterparts, you've been given a

role, you're making half the money that

424

: 00:20:27

they're making your, or maybe you're

making the same money, but you're given

425

: 00:20:30

half the budget that they're given,

but you're expected to produce at the

426

: 00:20:34

same level that they are producing.

427

: 00:20:37

You're setting me up for failure.

428

: 00:20:40

You know, and, and you're doing it based

on, it's intersectionality, you're, you're

429

: 00:20:44

looking at me as a woman, you're looking

at me as a woman of color, you're looking

430

: 00:20:47

at, and you're looking at these things

as weaknesses, when actually you should

431

: 00:20:51

be looking at them as strengths, right?

432

: 00:20:53

You should be embracing the differences

and that's what diversity is about.

433

: 00:20:56

So, I think these are, those are just, A

few things, there's several things, but

434

: 00:21:00

those are just a few things that really

kind of ruffles my feathers, you know,

435

: 00:21:05

because I've been in that position before.

436

: 00:21:07

I've been in a position where, you

know, you want me to produce how many

437

: 00:21:10

commercials, and you, my budget is fixed.

438

: 00:21:13

You know, 500, 000.

439

: 00:21:15

How am I supposed to do that?

440

: 00:21:17

And then, then I'm supposed to,

you know, well, these are the

441

: 00:21:20

KPIs we have to measure, make

sure that everything's doing well.

442

: 00:21:22

There's no, you're almost like playing

with my career, playing with my job.

443

: 00:21:27

And I know that there is more to this

than just the fact that there's, there's

444

: 00:21:31

not enough budget, because why does

my counterpart have 2 million in their

445

: 00:21:35

budget or 3 million in their budget?

446

: 00:21:37

And, and then there's no,

there is no, if There is no,

447

: 00:21:41

I'll use the word grace again.

448

: 00:21:42

There is no grace, um, based on

the disparity of the budgets.

449

: 00:21:48

There's no grace at all.

450

: 00:21:49

You just, you didn't perform as well.

451

: 00:21:52

Tony Tidbit: So, so, cause I

want to make sure we're clear.

452

: 00:21:55

So back up a little bit.

453

: 00:21:56

Um, so when you ran into that

situation where your budget is less

454

: 00:22:01

than your counterpart, and I would

imagine you, you push back and say,

455

: 00:22:06

Hey, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

456

: 00:22:07

What was the reason?

457

: 00:22:09

Did they give you any type of

reason, anything like that?

458

: 00:22:11

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: You know, I,

and I'll be very, in, in that situation,

459

: 00:22:15

I have been told before, make it happen.

460

: 00:22:19

There's no, no, this is, this is, this

is all there is to give, make it happen.

461

: 00:22:23

Or, um, we had to take from your

budget to, you know, there's

462

: 00:22:28

another initiative that's coming

up that we have to allocate for.

463

: 00:22:31

Tony Tidbit: Right,

464

: 00:22:32

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: but you

still need, need to make it happen.

465

: 00:22:35

So they still want you to

perform at a high level.

466

: 00:22:36

They still want you to perform at a high.

467

: 00:22:37

level

468

: 00:22:37

Tony Tidbit: then when you

said grace, they don't give

469

: 00:22:39

you any grace specifically.

470

: 00:22:40

What do you mean

471

: 00:22:41

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: when I say grace?

472

: 00:22:42

Meaning if you're giving me less

of a budget, then, then I, I

473

: 00:22:45

feel like the, the expectations

should be a KPI should be lower.

474

: 00:22:48

Based

475

: 00:22:49

Tony Tidbit: on the budget based

476

: 00:22:50

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: on the budget.

477

: 00:22:51

So if you're not doing that, that is

setting me up for failure You want

478

: 00:22:55

me to take money in my own pocket?

479

: 00:22:57

That's not gonna happen.

480

: 00:22:59

So there's no other way around

it You know How am I supposed to?

481

: 00:23:02

To accomplish these things that

you're asking me to accomplish if

482

: 00:23:04

you're not giving me the resources

and the tools that I need to do It

483

: 00:23:08

Tony Tidbit: so when you being a leader

being in that situation Do you leave

484

: 00:23:13

work at work.

485

: 00:23:15

Or do you carry that at home as well?

486

: 00:23:22

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I try my best

not to carry to carry work at home.

487

: 00:23:26

I don't like to talk about work.

488

: 00:23:27

I mean, Discovering Eden it was

different when I was a corporate America.

489

: 00:23:29

No,

490

: 00:23:29

Tony Tidbit: no, no.

491

: 00:23:30

That's your baby.

492

: 00:23:30

That's my baby.

493

: 00:23:32

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Um, I tried

not to do that, but I, I mean, to

494

: 00:23:34

be quite honest, When it, when it,

when situations like that, it, it,

495

: 00:23:39

it flows, it, it becomes more than

just, this is just a work issue.

496

: 00:23:42

This becomes almost personal.

497

: 00:23:44

So

498

: 00:23:44

Tony Tidbit: do, so, so

that's the next step.

499

: 00:23:46

Go, keep going.

500

: 00:23:46

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Right.

501

: 00:23:46

So when it becomes personal, then

I, then I am carrying it home

502

: 00:23:51

because I'm feeling, undervalued.

503

: 00:23:55

I'm feeling, um, I'm mostly

insignificant, but I, but I'm feeling,

504

: 00:24:01

um, unworthy of the fight, right?

505

: 00:24:07

So my boss should be able to

fight for more money for me

506

: 00:24:10

if he wants to do that, right?

507

: 00:24:12

He doesn't want to ruffle feathers.

508

: 00:24:13

So those are the things that kind of

seep into a woman of color that she

509

: 00:24:18

takes home at night that she's sleeping.

510

: 00:24:19

And these are the ruminating

thoughts that are coming back.

511

: 00:24:21

How am I going to accomplish this?

512

: 00:24:23

How am I going to do this to, you know,

how am I going to make this happen?

513

: 00:24:25

You don't want to fail.

514

: 00:24:27

That's not what you want to do, even

though you know that you've been given

515

: 00:24:30

a card that is hard to, a hand that's

hard to win, but you're still trying.

516

: 00:24:35

And you know, that's been our

517

: 00:24:36

Tony Tidbit: identity since we've

come here to the United States.

518

: 00:24:40

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: We're

519

: 00:24:40

Tony Tidbit: good at

520

: 00:24:41

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: it.

521

: 00:24:41

We've become good at it.

522

: 00:24:42

We've

523

: 00:24:42

Tony Tidbit: become good at it, right?

524

: 00:24:43

It's overcoming with nothing.

525

: 00:24:45

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Yes.

526

: 00:24:46

Tony Tidbit: Right?

527

: 00:24:46

And turning water into wine and

stuff to that nature, right?

528

: 00:24:49

But at the end of the day,

that doesn't matter, okay?

529

: 00:24:52

At the end of the day, So

think about it for a second.

530

: 00:24:55

I want to hear your thoughts on this.

531

: 00:24:57

Um, how, so, um, if I was hiring you,

right, to be my SVP or CRO or chief

532

: 00:25:07

marketing officer, what it may be,

how can I get the best out of you?

533

: 00:25:13

What do I need to do to

get the best out of you?

534

: 00:25:15

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: You need

to support, you need to equip

535

: 00:25:18

me with the essentials, right?

536

: 00:25:21

When I say essentials, I mean,

I'm taking into consideration that

537

: 00:25:26

we may not always be able to get

everything that we want, right?

538

: 00:25:29

There may not be enough budget for that,

but then there's the essentials, right?

539

: 00:25:32

So we need manpower.

540

: 00:25:34

I need a team.

541

: 00:25:35

I need you.

542

: 00:25:36

Are you going to give me a headcount?

543

: 00:25:38

That's one.

544

: 00:25:38

Are you going to give me a suitable

budget for what we are expecting?

545

: 00:25:44

Forecasting.

546

: 00:25:46

Are you going to give me autonomy?

547

: 00:25:48

Right?

548

: 00:25:49

Because then there's this

illusion of power, right?

549

: 00:25:52

We think we have power.

550

: 00:25:54

We've been given this

title, but it's a mirage.

551

: 00:25:58

Tony Tidbit: Right.

552

: 00:25:59

So, so in other words, and you tell me

because I think I know what you're saying.

553

: 00:26:03

Number one, you need to support me.

554

: 00:26:04

Yes, you need to have my back.

555

: 00:26:08

You need to empower me.

556

: 00:26:09

Let me make the decisions.

557

: 00:26:11

Let me do what I feel best, right?

558

: 00:26:13

But I feel what I think is best

you unleash me and you have my

559

: 00:26:18

back and you support me, right?

560

: 00:26:20

I have

561

: 00:26:20

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: one more go

ahead and you need to nurture me, right?

562

: 00:26:25

So my career didn't stop here.

563

: 00:26:27

You know, you need to you need to nurture

you need to foster an environment.

564

: 00:26:32

That's all about continued learning.

565

: 00:26:36

Um, and that doesn't happen all

the time for women in general, but

566

: 00:26:41

for women of color, we don't get

those opportunities all the time.

567

: 00:26:44

So, if you, if you are doing all those

things, you are setting me up for success.

568

: 00:26:48

Tony Tidbit: Right.

569

: 00:26:48

So, going back to your point,

back to the budget thing, right?

570

: 00:26:53

When you didn't, when you didn't

feel that you were being supported,

571

: 00:27:00

that they didn't have your back,

that they wasn't empowering you, that

572

: 00:27:05

they wasn't nurturing you, Was that

company getting the best individual?

573

: 00:27:10

That they could have gotten.

574

: 00:27:12

You're still gonna bring it anyway.

575

: 00:27:13

Right.

576

: 00:27:13

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: No, they weren't.

577

: 00:27:14

Right.

578

: 00:27:14

Right.

579

: 00:27:15

Right.

580

: 00:27:15

Right.

581

: 00:27:16

Tony Tidbit: You're still

gonna bring it anyway.

582

: 00:27:17

Right.

583

: 00:27:17

But you're bringing it with, with,

with a lot of baggage here because

584

: 00:27:21

you're thinking as you coming

in, you're gonna, we, like I said

585

: 00:27:24

earlier, we, we turn water into wine.

586

: 00:27:26

All right.

587

: 00:27:27

But at the end of the day,

if you want to unleash me and

588

: 00:27:30

where I can be an asset, Okay.

589

: 00:27:33

a major asset for the organization, right?

590

: 00:27:38

These are the things that you

need to bring to the table to

591

: 00:27:40

support me as a black woman leader.

592

: 00:27:43

And by doing that, guess what?

593

: 00:27:46

Your organization, your department,

whatever the case may be, I'm

594

: 00:27:49

going to tell you, I'm going to

take it to a whole nother level.

595

: 00:27:51

Is that correct?

596

: 00:27:52

Did I make that up?

597

: 00:27:53

That

598

: 00:27:54

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

is absolutely correct.

599

: 00:27:55

And, and, and, and the, what are

the repercussions of not equipping

600

: 00:27:59

your, your, your, they're going

to bring it and do their best.

601

: 00:28:05

But get burnt out and then where does

that you know, then there's then you're

602

: 00:28:11

talking about morale and productivity

goes down all these things start to

603

: 00:28:14

happen after Where they leave you get

burnt on you leave but when you when

604

: 00:28:19

you give them what they need you have

got You've got a devoted Employee there

605

: 00:28:25

that is going to work their hardest.

606

: 00:28:26

You're going to get a lot of productivity.

607

: 00:28:27

You're going to get a leader

that is inspiring their team.

608

: 00:28:30

You will have a leader that

is developing leaders because

609

: 00:28:33

leaders should develop leaders.

610

: 00:28:35

And at the end of the day, it is

going to benefit your company so much

611

: 00:28:39

more if you would just factor all of

the pieces in them that your leader

612

: 00:28:46

needs to succeed and to be successful.

613

: 00:28:48

And it's that simple.

614

: 00:28:49

I think.

615

: 00:28:50

Tony Tidbit: No, you're a hundred percent.

616

: 00:28:51

Right, right.

617

: 00:28:52

Um, Let me ask you this.

618

: 00:28:54

You said earlier about the company

that you were working with when your

619

: 00:28:59

first racial turning point happened.

620

: 00:29:01

Um, you said you were the

only person in the room.

621

: 00:29:04

You probably wasn't a

leader at that point.

622

: 00:29:06

Right?

623

: 00:29:07

But let me ask you this.

624

: 00:29:08

Have you been in organizations

where you were the only.

625

: 00:29:12

You know, person of color

from a leadership standpoint.

626

: 00:29:14

Okay.

627

: 00:29:15

So how did that make you feel

and how did that affect you?

628

: 00:29:19

Knowing that you're the

only one they hired you.

629

: 00:29:23

You don't see anybody that look like you.

630

: 00:29:25

Yeah.

631

: 00:29:25

Okay How did that affect you in

terms of navigating and being

632

: 00:29:29

effective at that organization?

633

: 00:29:31

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: and So

that's tokenism right there, right?

634

: 00:29:35

And so you can feel that

that's almost palpable.

635

: 00:29:38

You know, you, you know, that you, you,

you're doing your work with the mindset

636

: 00:29:42

that you are just filling a quota.

637

: 00:29:45

All right.

638

: 00:29:45

And that's how I felt most

often that I'm, I am here.

639

: 00:29:49

I don't know if my work is truly valued

as much as it is needed to check the box.

640

: 00:29:55

Tony Tidbit: Uh, and

that's, that's, that's,

641

: 00:29:56

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

that's, that's, that's, that's,

642

: 00:29:57

that's, that's Um, that's fake.

643

: 00:30:02

Tony Tidbit: So it's

definitely fake, right?

644

: 00:30:04

So you just said something.

645

: 00:30:05

You said tokenism.

646

: 00:30:07

100%.

647

: 00:30:08

You felt, you felt like I'm

just fulfilling a quota.

648

: 00:30:11

Right?

649

: 00:30:12

So, which makes sense.

650

: 00:30:13

How did your fellow employees see you?

651

: 00:30:17

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: What,

you mean my counterparts?

652

: 00:30:18

Your

653

: 00:30:18

Tony Tidbit: counterparts, I'm sorry,

not employees, your counterparts.

654

: 00:30:21

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Um,

I think, I think they saw me.

655

: 00:30:25

I think they saw me as a token.

656

: 00:30:27

I mean, I'm just going to be honest.

657

: 00:30:28

No, but, go ahead.

658

: 00:30:30

I think that they did and the reason

why, one of the reasons why I think so is

659

: 00:30:33

because one of the, as the only, as the

only person of color, it's very isolating.

660

: 00:30:43

You feel alone, right?

661

: 00:30:44

So, just like when you have an issue

on the job and you can, you know,

662

: 00:30:47

talk with your cohorts about it and

you, I don't have that experience.

663

: 00:30:51

Um, So the relationship, the

camaraderie is not the same, um, and

664

: 00:30:57

those, those nuances it's noticed.

665

: 00:31:02

Tony Tidbit: It's,

666

: 00:31:02

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: it's still,

it's just, we're not operating.

667

: 00:31:04

There's not a synergy.

668

: 00:31:06

So it affects in so many different ways.

669

: 00:31:08

So they definitely think I, that I,

and I've been on teams where they may

670

: 00:31:12

have been other, one other woman, most

times, It's just two women and I'm

671

: 00:31:17

probably always the only woman of color.

672

: 00:31:21

And um, but you know

it's a mixed bag, right?

673

: 00:31:24

Because as a woman of color you

almost feel like, like, I made it.

674

: 00:31:27

You know, like I'll just take

it for the sake of taking it.

675

: 00:31:30

Because, because, this is, you

know, this is how you kind of

676

: 00:31:33

go into, you don't know if the

opportunity will present itself again.

677

: 00:31:36

Tony Tidbit: Mm hmm.

678

: 00:31:38

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So I say that to

say when you are nurturing your employee,

679

: 00:31:43

employee, and they're getting the right

professional development and they're,

680

: 00:31:46

you know, uh, learning how to navigate,

navigate issues like imposter syndrome

681

: 00:31:51

or inadequacy or whatever it may be.

682

: 00:31:55

They're, they're, they're able to

deal with those feelings, with those

683

: 00:31:59

emotions, you know, um, and, and maybe

it would create better synergy, or

684

: 00:32:04

maybe, you know, it could, it could

lend itself to building a better team.

685

: 00:32:08

Right.

686

: 00:32:09

But, um, most women of color

do not have those resources.

687

: 00:32:14

Tony Tidbit: And so one of the things

when we talked about the description

688

: 00:32:18

of this episode is that how black

women leaders are undermined, okay?

689

: 00:32:25

So if you are the only black leader,

if you feel that you're a token, and

690

: 00:32:33

then your counterparts feel that you're

a token, do they think you really

691

: 00:32:40

got the job because you're qualified?

692

: 00:32:44

That you really, you have a, you bring

an expertise to the table, that you bring

693

: 00:32:48

a certain perspective that they wouldn't

have, or do you think that they figure you

694

: 00:32:52

only got the job because you were black?

695

: 00:32:55

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

That's exactly what they think.

696

: 00:32:56

And they demonstrate that, right?

697

: 00:32:59

Because in, in those positions,

I felt many times as though

698

: 00:33:03

you said undermined, right?

699

: 00:33:06

Opinion being dismissed or

700

: 00:33:08

Tony Tidbit: we say

opinion being dismissed.

701

: 00:33:10

Like what do you mean

702

: 00:33:10

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: like if

we're in a conference room and we're

703

: 00:33:12

brainstorming and everyone is giving

their suggestion and my suggestion

704

: 00:33:16

might be very valid, but it may take

a couple of people to remind them.

705

: 00:33:21

Well, that actually was a good idea.

706

: 00:33:22

Let's listen to it again.

707

: 00:33:26

So it takes so much time with that.

708

: 00:33:29

So those they know why you're

there and and it was several times

709

: 00:33:34

where I was even more qualified.

710

: 00:33:37

Or had better credentials.

711

: 00:33:39

And It's that, it's that,

it's that, um, that stench.

712

: 00:33:45

No,

713

: 00:33:47

Tony Tidbit: no, no, no.

714

: 00:33:48

You smell it.

715

: 00:33:50

I've been in situations like that.

716

: 00:33:51

You smell it, right?

717

: 00:33:52

You see it.

718

: 00:33:53

You see how you're,

they're tuning you out.

719

: 00:33:56

Yeah.

720

: 00:33:56

Okay.

721

: 00:33:57

You be your ideas and stuff

don't matter as much, right?

722

: 00:34:01

Your thoughts and stuff

don't matter as much.

723

: 00:34:03

And then.

724

: 00:34:04

But that undermines your leadership.

725

: 00:34:07

If, here's the thing, if,

and, and let me ask you this.

726

: 00:34:11

Yeah.

727

: 00:34:11

When you were in a leader leadership

position, you had a team Mm-Hmm.

728

: 00:34:14

is that correct?

729

: 00:34:15

Mm-Hmm.

730

: 00:34:15

. So that's where it does it.

731

: 00:34:17

Go ahead.

732

: 00:34:17

Talk to us a little bit about that.

733

: 00:34:18

How does this affect you and the team?

734

: 00:34:20

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: It it,

it can, because now when you're

735

: 00:34:23

leading a team and you're expecting

your team to respect you, right.

736

: 00:34:28

You know, not only respect

you, but you know, obviously,

737

: 00:34:31

you know, you know, follow.

738

: 00:34:34

Instruction, you know, produce, but they

can pick up on, they start to pick up.

739

: 00:34:42

Now, I have not had experiences

where they have adapted that

740

: 00:34:46

attitude and treated me differently

because I always kept a really good

741

: 00:34:50

Tony Tidbit: relationship with them.

742

: 00:34:52

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Always did that.

743

: 00:34:53

But I have had moments where they have

come to me and said, This is not right.

744

: 00:35:00

Why is such and such team doing this?

745

: 00:35:03

And, you know what I mean?

746

: 00:35:04

So it's obvious.

747

: 00:35:05

And, and, I've had, I've had team

members come to me that are not.

748

: 00:35:11

Minority.

749

: 00:35:12

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

750

: 00:35:13

They see it.

751

: 00:35:13

They see it.

752

: 00:35:14

They see it out,

753

: 00:35:15

Tony Tidbit: right?

754

: 00:35:15

And they call it out and they

see the differences, right?

755

: 00:35:18

But again, we talk it undermined.

756

: 00:35:19

Yeah.

757

: 00:35:19

So how is that making

you an effective leader?

758

: 00:35:22

Right.

759

: 00:35:22

Right.

760

: 00:35:23

When you have all these different

type of things, um, that happen

761

: 00:35:27

and they don't happen in the

vacuum, everybody sees them, right?

762

: 00:35:30

And then talk a little bit about

the microaggressions, right?

763

: 00:35:33

The little subtle ways.

764

: 00:35:35

I mean, let's be honest.

765

: 00:35:36

And when you're on that call, You

know, it's a long time ago, right?

766

: 00:35:40

That wasn't subtle.

767

: 00:35:40

That wasn't subtle, right?

768

: 00:35:42

That was flat out, right?

769

: 00:35:43

But talk a little bit about some of

the microaggressions that you, you have

770

: 00:35:47

experienced as a black woman leader.

771

: 00:35:50

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I think,

you know, microaggressions that I've

772

: 00:35:52

experienced might be just comments

about style, um, or comments about,

773

: 00:35:59

uh, and not even just style, like when

I was taking my son to look at HBCUs.

774

: 00:36:06

And The first reaction sometimes when

you tell certain people HP's first, they

775

: 00:36:11

don't know what it is sometimes you gotta

break it down But then when you do break

776

: 00:36:14

it down It's almost like, I don't know

why, you know, like disqualifying the,

777

: 00:36:19

the, the, the validity of the school.

778

: 00:36:22

So, and those are, you know, those

are, those are more annoying than

779

: 00:36:24

anything, but I, I think the more

microaggressions is, is when people touch

780

: 00:36:31

your hair, they always talk about that.

781

: 00:36:32

So they touch

782

: 00:36:33

Tony Tidbit: your hair

and stuff like that.

783

: 00:36:34

I

784

: 00:36:34

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

have definitely had that.

785

: 00:36:35

And that, it wasn't this hair either.

786

: 00:36:37

It was, you know, like corporate

hair, like straight corporate.

787

: 00:36:41

Tony Tidbit: Yeah.

788

: 00:36:41

Yeah.

789

: 00:36:42

So it, it just.

790

: 00:36:46

Yeah, they touch your hair.

791

: 00:36:48

Doesn't matter which, what

type of hairstyle you have.

792

: 00:36:50

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: No.

793

: 00:36:51

People

794

: 00:36:51

Tony Tidbit: wanna touch your hair.

795

: 00:36:52

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I mean, I could

give the benefit of the doubt and say,

796

: 00:36:54

you know, they just thought it was lovely.

797

: 00:36:56

I don't know.

798

: 00:36:56

But it's like, you're

not supposed to do that.

799

: 00:36:59

You know?

800

: 00:36:59

It's, it's, it's inappropriate.

801

: 00:37:01

Have you touch another

802

: 00:37:01

Tony Tidbit: woman's hair,

a white woman's hair at all?

803

: 00:37:03

I don't

804

: 00:37:04

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: think so.

805

: 00:37:04

Okay.

806

: 00:37:05

Okay.

807

: 00:37:05

Maybe my girlfriend, you know.

808

: 00:37:07

Okay.

809

: 00:37:07

Not my, but not

810

: 00:37:08

Tony Tidbit: just somebody

coming outta the blue.

811

: 00:37:09

You look so great.

812

: 00:37:09

And they wanna, yeah.

813

: 00:37:10

Yeah.

814

: 00:37:11

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

No, I, I do not think so.

815

: 00:37:13

Um.

816

: 00:37:15

It's, it's, it's some things, it's

hard to define sometimes what you

817

: 00:37:21

would consider to be micro and what

you consider to be a macroaggression.

818

: 00:37:24

Right?

819

: 00:37:24

Because some of them can kind of

like cross the line or overlap.

820

: 00:37:28

Tony Tidbit: Can you, can you define both?

821

: 00:37:29

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Yeah,

so a macro, I think a macro.

822

: 00:37:33

Okay, so the instance that happened with

me that we just talked about when they

823

: 00:37:35

said, uh, when they used the N word.

824

: 00:37:39

That is a macro to me.

825

: 00:37:43

But if they didn't know that I was

in the room and it was, would that be

826

: 00:37:50

also considered like a microaggression?

827

: 00:37:52

No.

828

: 00:37:54

I think the, I

829

: 00:37:55

Tony Tidbit: think the micro

is the stuff, uh, why your son

830

: 00:37:58

going to an HBCU or touching your

hair and stuff of that nature.

831

: 00:38:02

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And I think

maybe macro would be counterparts

832

: 00:38:05

to question, why did you get

so much money for that budget?

833

: 00:38:09

Or why are you getting another headcount?

834

: 00:38:11

Why are you getting

another full time employee?

835

: 00:38:13

And then they will actually go question

and go to the boss and say, I don't

836

: 00:38:16

understand why is Sony getting another F.

837

: 00:38:17

T.

838

: 00:38:17

E.

839

: 00:38:17

I need more help on my team.

840

: 00:38:19

So those are more, and I say that that

to me is a macro question because I

841

: 00:38:25

don't see you doing that to the other

to the other are other team members

842

: 00:38:28

who don't who don't look like me.

843

: 00:38:29

Right.

844

: 00:38:30

I do not see that.

845

: 00:38:32

And They can be very vocal about it too.

846

: 00:38:33

They will make a big deal, like go to the

boss and say like, What's up with this?

847

: 00:38:37

Yet they're not, they're not angry.

848

: 00:38:39

They're, they're just voicing their,

they're just voicing their opinion.

849

: 00:38:43

So in other words, They

are absolutely angry.

850

: 00:38:45

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, but just so I'm clear.

851

: 00:38:47

In other words, they, they go to

push back about, You know, the

852

: 00:38:51

resources that you may get, right?

853

: 00:38:54

But if you did that, you

would be the angry person.

854

: 00:38:56

If they did it, it's just

a regular conversation.

855

: 00:38:58

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

That's one and two.

856

: 00:38:59

I think that they're so used to,

they're so used to us not getting the

857

: 00:39:01

resources that when we, when you do

get one or two little things, they, How

858

: 00:39:06

did that happen or why did that happen?

859

: 00:39:09

I need it.

860

: 00:39:09

I need an explanation, you know,

861

: 00:39:11

Tony Tidbit: you know, one of the things

I've always had to deal with, um, you

862

: 00:39:15

know, it's the mental, uh, challenge

when you see things, you feel things,

863

: 00:39:22

little, little bitty, like little needles.

864

: 00:39:24

This is hitting you over

and over again, right?

865

: 00:39:26

You see it, you feel it, right?

866

: 00:39:29

Um, at the same time, I've had some,

um, and you spoke to this a minute ago.

867

: 00:39:34

I had some, you know.

868

: 00:39:35

People on my team or other

leaders come to me like an ally.

869

: 00:39:40

I like using the word accomplice, right?

870

: 00:39:43

And say hey, man, how are you doing?

871

: 00:39:46

Hey, you know that makes me feel a lot

better Because I'm not I don't feel like

872

: 00:39:51

I'm walking through the woods all by

myself Have you talked a little bit about

873

: 00:39:55

have you had different allies or different

individuals speak up on your behalf?

874

: 00:40:00

You know, push back against the status

quo regarding some of these issues.

875

: 00:40:04

Do you mean a minority also, or you

just mean in general, I'm talking

876

: 00:40:08

outside of a person of color.

877

: 00:40:10

I'm talking to a white person

that's really helping champion

878

: 00:40:14

and they may not be a leader.

879

: 00:40:15

They could be somebody

that's on your team.

880

: 00:40:17

Like you said earlier,

881

: 00:40:18

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: right.

882

: 00:40:19

Um, I could have that.

883

: 00:40:21

And honestly, I've had a boss or

two that, um, were, um, Minority

884

: 00:40:27

as well, but not as minority as me

and That may be more say, um Can

885

: 00:40:36

pass, you know, they can maybe pass.

886

: 00:40:37

Am I allowed to say that on?

887

: 00:40:38

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, so wait, so i'm just

being clear here So what are you saying?

888

: 00:40:41

They're light skinned.

889

: 00:40:42

They're light skinned

or they're dark skinned.

890

: 00:40:44

What do you mean?

891

: 00:40:44

So

892

: 00:40:45

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

they're so they are.

893

: 00:40:46

Um

894

: 00:40:47

Tony Tidbit: Hold on a second.

895

: 00:40:48

You want a black executive

perspective podcast?

896

: 00:40:51

You just speak your mind here

897

: 00:40:53

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: And I, when

I say can pass, you know, he can

898

: 00:40:55

pass, he can, he can kind of, he

899

: 00:40:57

Tony Tidbit: can, he can look white.

900

: 00:40:58

Yeah.

901

: 00:40:58

And he, he's part of, they feel he's

part of their white affiliation.

902

: 00:41:02

Right.

903

: 00:41:02

Right.

904

: 00:41:02

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I should say.

905

: 00:41:04

And he can fit in there, but he

also knows, but he also has, he

906

: 00:41:07

also knows who he is as well.

907

: 00:41:09

So he can kind of resonate with what

I'm feeling to a certain degree.

908

: 00:41:13

Right.

909

: 00:41:14

So he has fought for me before

for budgets to the higher up.

910

: 00:41:17

He has done that in those moments.

911

: 00:41:19

I have felt like that

In an ally, so to speak.

912

: 00:41:22

Um, I have not had a lot of

moments like that, though.

913

: 00:41:26

I really haven't.

914

: 00:41:26

I think a lot of times people are,

people are about what they're doing.

915

: 00:41:29

They care about themselves and, you

know, what, what they have going on.

916

: 00:41:33

And they're not always

going to be willing to.

917

: 00:41:36

You know, step up, you know, and if

they are, um, your, your counterpart,

918

: 00:41:43

they're not trying to give up

what they have for you, you know?

919

: 00:41:47

So that's, you know, that's basically

why I think I haven't had too many of

920

: 00:41:51

those experiences, but I did have one

or two that were meaningful enough.

921

: 00:41:54

Tony Tidbit: So, you know, You think

about it and you said illustrious career.

922

: 00:42:01

Mm-Hmm?

923

: 00:42:02

. Okay.

924

: 00:42:03

You said illustrious.

925

: 00:42:04

No, you said it said,

you said, can I say it?

926

: 00:42:05

You know, you said illustrious.

927

: 00:42:06

I said you can say illustrious.

928

: 00:42:07

We don't, we don't, we

don't build ourselves up.

929

: 00:42:09

Okay.

930

: 00:42:10

I did.

931

: 00:42:10

So, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

932

: 00:42:11

You said illustrious, right?

933

: 00:42:13

And so based on all the

things that you've dealt with.

934

: 00:42:18

Okay, that most people don't know about

as being a black woman leader, right?

935

: 00:42:25

Why do you say illustrious?

936

: 00:42:28

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: I say

illustrious because I have worked for

937

: 00:42:30

the majority of the companies that I've

worked or have all been Fortune 50.

938

: 00:42:35

And As a woman of color to

work for these organizations.

939

: 00:42:42

Um, I think that speaks to volume to

my career, um, my credentials, um, and

940

: 00:42:50

my, you know, my commitment to my work.

941

: 00:42:53

Um, and

942

: 00:42:57

I've done some great things, you know,

I've done some great things while I

943

: 00:43:00

was with those organizations, you know,

launched the first set of commercials for

944

: 00:43:04

one of the companies with radio and TV.

945

: 00:43:06

Um, Help to, you know, rebrand our,

you know, look and feel for the kind

946

: 00:43:13

of a lot of great things that were

an undertaking that were successful.

947

: 00:43:20

And so I say less just for not just

for myself and the work that I've

948

: 00:43:23

done, but also for the institutions

that I've been privileged to work for.

949

: 00:43:26

And that

950

: 00:43:26

Tony Tidbit: is awesome.

951

: 00:43:27

And, you know, at the end of the day,

think about what you could have done.

952

: 00:43:34

Had you been supported,

seen as an equal, right?

953

: 00:43:38

People support you as they

would do with any person, right?

954

: 00:43:43

You've had an illustrious career and

still had to deal with all these things.

955

: 00:43:47

That's, yeah, that's a great point.

956

: 00:43:49

See my point, here it is.

957

: 00:43:50

Okay.

958

: 00:43:50

Yeah.

959

: 00:43:50

And, and so, so what?

960

: 00:43:52

She made it so what people deal with.

961

: 00:43:53

So stop.

962

: 00:43:54

Alright, stop.

963

: 00:43:56

Okay.

964

: 00:43:56

At the end of the day,

just getting through the

965

: 00:43:57

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: doors,

966

: 00:43:58

Tony Tidbit: she, these thank you.

967

: 00:43:59

Right.

968

: 00:43:59

These things that, you know, women of

color deal with, black women deal with.

969

: 00:44:04

Yeah.

970

: 00:44:04

Yeah.

971

: 00:44:04

All right.

972

: 00:44:04

And you know, when we backing up to

intersectionality, you know, um, one

973

: 00:44:09

of the things I had to learn and, and,

you know, and look everything you said.

974

: 00:44:13

Everything I've experienced as a

black male in corporate America from

975

: 00:44:16

tokenism, tokenism to all yards.

976

: 00:44:18

But here's the difference

is that I'm still a male.

977

: 00:44:23

Okay, which gives me some

advantages versus a female.

978

: 00:44:28

Right.

979

: 00:44:29

So if you start thinking that's where

the intersectionality comes into play.

980

: 00:44:32

All right.

981

: 00:44:33

So and then when some of my friends who

were, you know, not who were who are,

982

: 00:44:37

you know, African American leaders, women

of color, and they share certain things.

983

: 00:44:41

And, and I'm like, wow, you know

what, I didn't even think I see that.

984

: 00:44:46

My stuff as a male, but when I hear

about the things that our sisters

985

: 00:44:51

of color go through, I'm like, wow.

986

: 00:44:54

Right?

987

: 00:44:54

And so you carry this a lot of, a

lot of, a lot of women, black women

988

: 00:44:58

are carrying a bag on their shoulder.

989

: 00:45:02

And still bringing it every day.

990

: 00:45:04

Yes.

991

: 00:45:05

Right.

992

: 00:45:05

And can sit here on a black executive

perspective and say, I had an

993

: 00:45:08

illustrious career and trust me,

we've got a lot of women leaders

994

: 00:45:11

come on here and they've said a lot

of the same things that you've said.

995

: 00:45:15

Right.

996

: 00:45:16

And they got PhDs, they're CEOs,

they're chief marketing officers.

997

: 00:45:20

They got a ton of stuff going on.

998

: 00:45:21

Right.

999

: 00:45:21

But that doesn't, uh, the, uh, diminish.

: 1000

00:45:25,715 --> 00:45:28,855

What we had to go through what

people, not just what you have, what

: 1001

00:45:28,855 --> 00:45:30,465

people still have to go through.

: 1002

00:45:30,745 --> 00:45:31,155

Right.

: 1003

00:45:31,595 --> 00:45:33,575

And this is why we speak

up on these things.

: 1004

00:45:33,875 --> 00:45:34,675

Speak a little bit.

: 1005

00:45:34,675 --> 00:45:35,805

Did you have something you

want to say about that?

: 1006

00:45:35,805 --> 00:45:36,055

Go ahead.

: 1007

00:45:36,105 --> 00:45:37,695

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Well, not

necessarily about that, but I was going

: 1008

00:45:37,695 --> 00:45:43,865

to say, um, you know, about 10 years ago,

uh, with the Sheryl Sandberg, the next

: 1009

00:45:44,235 --> 00:45:45,705

came on the scene for the book, Lean In.

: 1010

00:45:46,395 --> 00:45:50,385

I don't know that you've heard that

she's, she's an executive at, really?

: 1011

00:45:50,665 --> 00:45:51,895

So she wrote this book called lean in.

: 1012

00:45:51,895 --> 00:45:52,365

Educate me.

: 1013

00:45:53,945 --> 00:45:55,655

She wrote it's a great,

it's great principles.

: 1014

00:45:55,655 --> 00:45:59,115

It's about women, you know, leaning

into your voice, finding your voice,

: 1015

00:45:59,115 --> 00:46:03,075

being authentic and, and, you know,

doing it all, having your career.

: 1016

00:46:03,225 --> 00:46:04,015

She worked at Facebook.

: 1017

00:46:04,055 --> 00:46:04,455

I forget.

: 1018

00:46:04,455 --> 00:46:05,945

She might've been like the

chief operating officer of

: 1019

00:46:05,945 --> 00:46:07,175

Facebook or something like that.

: 1020

00:46:07,895 --> 00:46:10,095

And it went wild.

: 1021

00:46:10,175 --> 00:46:10,505

Gotcha.

: 1022

00:46:11,475 --> 00:46:17,565

I think she met up with this head

talk and it's good principles, but.

: 1023

00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,920

It's not that that's not the

experience for women of color, right?

: 1024

00:46:23,380 --> 00:46:28,090

She is speaking from a

place of privilege, right?

: 1025

00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,030

Because she's, I don't know,

Ivy League and all these things.

: 1026

00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,150

Um, she's, she's also

speaking from the table.

: 1027

00:46:33,170 --> 00:46:34,080

She's already sitting there.

: 1028

00:46:34,090 --> 00:46:35,630

You know, she, she has that seat.

: 1029

00:46:36,140 --> 00:46:42,810

And women of color, we, we have to

come against, you know, we don't

: 1030

00:46:42,810 --> 00:46:44,130

have the same education all the time.

: 1031

00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:45,370

You know, as some of these.

: 1032

00:46:46,190 --> 00:46:49,670

The opportunities advantages

to some other women have had.

: 1033

00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:49,860

Right.

: 1034

00:46:49,870 --> 00:46:52,120

We have education, but

it may not be Ivy League.

: 1035

00:46:52,130 --> 00:46:55,280

Does that mean that we're not,

we cannot be qualified for the

: 1036

00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:56,500

position or we're not as great.

: 1037

00:46:57,510 --> 00:47:00,950

We don't always have our voice

is not always heard because we

: 1038

00:47:00,950 --> 00:47:02,410

don't have that seat at the table.

: 1039

00:47:03,230 --> 00:47:04,340

And so it just really.

: 1040

00:47:05,345 --> 00:47:08,515

It was a eye opening for me, the book.

: 1041

00:47:08,525 --> 00:47:11,985

I really, the book was good and it's

great principles, but there needs to

: 1042

00:47:11,985 --> 00:47:15,675

be the, the, the homegirl version.

: 1043

00:47:16,205 --> 00:47:17,215

No, no, no, no, no.

: 1044

00:47:17,215 --> 00:47:17,815

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

: 1045

00:47:18,075 --> 00:47:20,095

You know, with more strategies.

: 1046

00:47:20,125 --> 00:47:20,655

Yes.

: 1047

00:47:21,345 --> 00:47:26,065

To help a woman of color in

those, you can't tell us to find

: 1048

00:47:26,065 --> 00:47:28,495

our voice because a lot of women

of color are using their voice.

: 1049

00:47:28,555 --> 00:47:31,005

They're trying to, but

then they're labeled angry.

: 1050

00:47:32,155 --> 00:47:35,645

It doesn't, you know, it's not a

cookie cutter thing, you know, so.

: 1051

00:47:36,530 --> 00:47:37,880

We're still trying to find our way.

: 1052

00:47:37,910 --> 00:47:39,590

We're making, you know, strides.

: 1053

00:47:39,620 --> 00:47:42,340

We are, but there's still

a lot of work to be done.

: 1054

00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:45,950

Tony Tidbit: So speaking of work to be

done, you know, you, you're, you're the

: 1055

00:47:45,950 --> 00:47:49,430

CEO of Discover, uh, Discover Eden, right?

: 1056

00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:53,240

And you spoke about a lot of the

things that you help, you know,

: 1057

00:47:53,250 --> 00:47:54,770

leaders be able to overcome.

: 1058

00:47:54,770 --> 00:47:58,050

So talk a little, give us a little,

like if you had a magic wand.

: 1059

00:47:58,180 --> 00:47:58,500

Yeah.

: 1060

00:47:58,950 --> 00:47:59,330

Okay.

: 1061

00:47:59,330 --> 00:48:06,755

Sonya's got a magic wand and you can

change Okay, or there's a, uh, uh,

: 1062

00:48:06,765 --> 00:48:10,285

uh, uh, a woman leader, black woman

leader is listening to this podcast

: 1063

00:48:10,285 --> 00:48:13,605

or watching this podcast and they're

saying, yep, I go through that.

: 1064

00:48:13,605 --> 00:48:14,155

I've been through that.

: 1065

00:48:14,405 --> 00:48:19,235

What recommendations would you make

for them to deal with some of these

: 1066

00:48:19,235 --> 00:48:21,475

things in a better, better light?

: 1067

00:48:21,675 --> 00:48:23,535

And then more importantly,

try to overcome that.

: 1068

00:48:23,535 --> 00:48:26,625

And look, there's a big system, but

what advice would you give them?

: 1069

00:48:26,965 --> 00:48:30,795

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: So

There's, there's, the word embrace

: 1070

00:48:31,725 --> 00:48:35,295

means to literally embrace,

to hold on, to take on to.

: 1071

00:48:35,625 --> 00:48:38,765

So to take on, embrace diversity, right?

: 1072

00:48:38,765 --> 00:48:44,980

So that means, Stop hiring one

black person to be the head of DEI

: 1073

00:48:45,860 --> 00:48:49,210

and calling that your DEI program.

: 1074

00:48:49,420 --> 00:48:49,660

Tony Tidbit: Right.

: 1075

00:48:50,450 --> 00:48:50,820

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Right?

: 1076

00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:58,670

Stop asking middle aged white men

that have been in their positions

: 1077

00:48:58,670 --> 00:49:03,730

for the last 20 years to be the

decision makers on how to cultivate

: 1078

00:49:03,780 --> 00:49:07,110

.

and empower their high achieving black women or women of color.

: 1079

00:49:08,010 --> 00:49:11,220

There needs to be more

representation in those rooms, on

: 1080

00:49:11,220 --> 00:49:12,730

those boards, on those committees.

: 1081

00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:16,640

That's what I would say is you need

to bring those people in so that they

: 1082

00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,240

can bring more perspectives, right?

: 1083

00:49:18,450 --> 00:49:20,140

We don't know what we don't know.

: 1084

00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:24,210

Some, you know, some people maybe really

don't know how to embrace diversity.

: 1085

00:49:24,210 --> 00:49:25,550

We can all learn, you know?

: 1086

00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,930

And so that's the grace, right?

: 1087

00:49:27,930 --> 00:49:28,680

You need a little grace.

: 1088

00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,895

If you don't know, then Bring the right

people in to help you bring in the right

: 1089

00:49:32,895 --> 00:49:38,495

programs like Discovering Eden, you know,

set it up so that your women that that are

: 1090

00:49:38,535 --> 00:49:43,985

on the career path forward have no choice

but to go through these programs, you

: 1091

00:49:43,985 --> 00:49:48,315

know, that they have to equip themselves

with the right, uh, soft skills,

: 1092

00:49:48,345 --> 00:49:54,535

technical skills, um, leadership skills,

executive presence, all of those things.

: 1093

00:49:54,995 --> 00:49:59,745

Get senior leadership to C suite

those men in system change management.

: 1094

00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,070

Training, right?

: 1095

00:50:02,070 --> 00:50:05,180

So that they can start to change

the way that they manage and

: 1096

00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,450

implement some bias training,

: 1097

00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:09,080

Tony Tidbit: right?

: 1098

00:50:09,370 --> 00:50:12,810

And that's to me one of the, I mean,

I've seen them do it at a high level.

: 1099

00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:16,730

But I'm talking grassroots at the

lower level and it needs to be

: 1100

00:50:16,730 --> 00:50:20,600

consistent because just doing one

bias training and people don't get it.

: 1101

00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:21,000

Right.

: 1102

00:50:21,010 --> 00:50:21,400

No, there

: 1103

00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,980

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: needs to be

like, you know, some kind of interaction

: 1104

00:50:23,980 --> 00:50:26,400

or some kind of, there needs to be KPIs.

: 1105

00:50:26,410 --> 00:50:29,060

Like we want to see the, one of

the metrics, did everyone take it?

: 1106

00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:30,160

What did they learn from it?

: 1107

00:50:30,260 --> 00:50:32,270

How do we incorporate these

things that we're learning?

: 1108

00:50:32,270 --> 00:50:33,850

The team should be

operating differently now.

: 1109

00:50:33,850 --> 00:50:35,250

You should be leading

at a different level.

: 1110

00:50:35,765 --> 00:50:42,215

There should be, there should be, um,

clear, you know, a clear visibility on the

: 1111

00:50:42,225 --> 00:50:46,755

changes or the impact that the programs

are making because yeah, we all take

: 1112

00:50:46,755 --> 00:50:50,105

those classes that do as a compliance

you got to do at the job like every,

: 1113

00:50:50,405 --> 00:50:54,485

every, whatever, every couple of months

and you got to go through and talk.

: 1114

00:50:54,625 --> 00:50:55,205

We do it.

: 1115

00:50:55,215 --> 00:50:56,475

But do we really do anything with it?

: 1116

00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:57,260

Tony Tidbit: Right.

: 1117

00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:58,560

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: You

know, so you need good programs.

: 1118

00:50:58,570 --> 00:50:58,780

Well,

: 1119

00:50:58,780 --> 00:51:00,090

Tony Tidbit: there's no follow up, right?

: 1120

00:51:01,460 --> 00:51:02,100

It needs to be followed.

: 1121

00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:02,960

It's a check the box.

: 1122

00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:03,090

And

: 1123

00:51:03,090 --> 00:51:04,310

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: it

starts with the top, right?

: 1124

00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:05,260

Exactly.

: 1125

00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,190

The fish rots from the

top, somebody told me.

: 1126

00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,230

It starts from there and it trickles down.

: 1127

00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:10,620

If we can get them straight.

: 1128

00:51:11,025 --> 00:51:12,215

Then we can start.

: 1129

00:51:12,235 --> 00:51:13,385

They can set the standard

: 1130

00:51:13,445 --> 00:51:14,285

Tony Tidbit: exactly.

: 1131

00:51:14,665 --> 00:51:16,135

So final thoughts.

: 1132

00:51:16,425 --> 00:51:17,965

What do you want to leave

the listeners today?

: 1133

00:51:17,975 --> 00:51:19,195

You gave some great advice.

: 1134

00:51:19,415 --> 00:51:21,485

You gave you gave great examples.

: 1135

00:51:21,485 --> 00:51:24,885

You you really elevated

a lot of these issues.

: 1136

00:51:25,275 --> 00:51:29,395

Um, that women, black women deal

with, you know, some final thoughts.

: 1137

00:51:29,555 --> 00:51:30,385

What do you want them to know?

: 1138

00:51:30,725 --> 00:51:31,585

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Final thoughts.

: 1139

00:51:33,995 --> 00:51:35,165

This is a two fold.

: 1140

00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:42,790

Equipping, empowering, cultivating,

um, high achieving women.

: 1141

00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:46,210

It's, it's a, in an organization,

it's a twofold exchange.

: 1142

00:51:46,650 --> 00:51:50,940

It's, it's just, it's not only

for the individual, the company

: 1143

00:51:51,090 --> 00:51:52,340

will also benefit from this.

: 1144

00:51:52,990 --> 00:51:54,500

So don't shy away from it.

: 1145

00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:55,950

This is not something that

you're just giving away and

: 1146

00:51:55,950 --> 00:51:57,040

you're not going to get back.

: 1147

00:51:57,260 --> 00:52:03,100

It's important to put these,

these, these tools in place

: 1148

00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:05,330

for your, not only for your.

: 1149

00:52:05,405 --> 00:52:09,455

Your teams to thrive before

the company to grow and and

: 1150

00:52:09,455 --> 00:52:13,195

just for just to be progressive

: 1151

00:52:13,645 --> 00:52:13,785

Tony Tidbit: to

: 1152

00:52:13,785 --> 00:52:15,565

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: be a

progressive organization, you know,

: 1153

00:52:16,355 --> 00:52:20,615

the DEI has become this buzzword over

the last few years and over buzz term.

: 1154

00:52:20,955 --> 00:52:23,195

And, um, it needs to be more than that.

: 1155

00:52:23,225 --> 00:52:28,945

So, you know, help, help,

help, uh, women of color loyal.

: 1156

00:52:28,945 --> 00:52:31,080

If you take care of us,

We'll take care of you.

: 1157

00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:33,120

Tony Tidbit: That's just

the bottom line, right?

: 1158

00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:34,200

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

This That's the bottom line.

: 1159

00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:35,220

We're strong too.

: 1160

00:52:35,250 --> 00:52:36,220

We're very strong.

: 1161

00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:37,940

We're strong women.

: 1162

00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,000

We know how to do a lot with not much.

: 1163

00:52:41,060 --> 00:52:44,080

So can you imagine what we'll do if

you give us everything that we need?

: 1164

00:52:44,270 --> 00:52:44,870

Tony Tidbit: Exactly.

: 1165

00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,680

So speaking of what, uh, you need,

tell us how a Black Executive

: 1166

00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,220

Perspective Podcast can help you.

: 1167

00:52:50,810 --> 00:52:51,830

Sonia Haynes McNaughton:

How you can help me?

: 1168

00:52:52,220 --> 00:52:59,855

Um, you can help me by sharing that

my, uh, New LMS, which is a learning

: 1169

00:52:59,855 --> 00:53:02,045

management system is about to be launched.

: 1170

00:53:02,045 --> 00:53:05,365

We have our own proprietary, uh,

SAS product that we've built.

: 1171

00:53:05,645 --> 00:53:06,695

It's near completion.

: 1172

00:53:06,725 --> 00:53:10,475

And so any new client that, uh,

joins discovering Eden, you will

: 1173

00:53:10,475 --> 00:53:13,565

have your own portal, you will have

direct access, you'll have access

: 1174

00:53:13,595 --> 00:53:15,635

to the courses and the programs.

: 1175

00:53:15,635 --> 00:53:19,425

And you will also have access to a

community of women that are like minded

: 1176

00:53:19,425 --> 00:53:23,215

that you can, you know, vibe off of each

other, share best practices and, and,

: 1177

00:53:23,215 --> 00:53:25,425

and, and share experiences or, or, or.

: 1178

00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,680

Reach out for solutions and you can

also use our, our library, especially

: 1179

00:53:29,690 --> 00:53:33,670

curated for women executives that is

going to just continue to enlighten you

: 1180

00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:37,210

and help you to be better at what you're

doing and, and soaring your career.

: 1181

00:53:37,210 --> 00:53:37,660

So

: 1182

00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:38,650

Tony Tidbit: that is awesome.

: 1183

00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:40,490

So listen, we're definitely

going to promote that.

: 1184

00:53:40,780 --> 00:53:44,420

We're going to put your website

and stuff up on, on our website.

: 1185

00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,800

So definitely check out discover

Eden, you know, especially for those

: 1186

00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:54,635

who really want to have some type

of, Uh, expert to help them deal with

: 1187

00:53:54,635 --> 00:53:57,875

some of their issues, perfect some

of the things that they're looking

: 1188

00:53:57,875 --> 00:53:59,395

to do to take it to the next level.

: 1189

00:53:59,575 --> 00:54:00,925

So you definitely want

to reach out to some

: 1190

00:54:00,935 --> 00:54:03,835

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: programs

are, are, are, uh, you know, based on

: 1191

00:54:03,935 --> 00:54:08,865

research and case studies and it is,

uh, it's, they are, they're rigorous

: 1192

00:54:08,865 --> 00:54:11,255

and they are created to be impactful.

: 1193

00:54:11,630 --> 00:54:12,070

So,

: 1194

00:54:12,780 --> 00:54:15,910

Tony Tidbit: and I can imagine, I can

imagine, especially having, you know,

: 1195

00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,990

Sonya leading, leading the charge.

: 1196

00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,880

So we want to thank you

for coming on today.

: 1197

00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,560

A Black Executive Perspective, you know,

your insights and thoughts and experiences

: 1198

00:54:25,820 --> 00:54:29,360

has really, really, you know, touched

me and I'm pretty sure it's touched

: 1199

00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,870

the audience and, you know, we want

to have you come back sometime soon.

: 1200

00:54:33,090 --> 00:54:34,380

Sonia Haynes McNaughton: Thank

you so much for having me.

: 1201

00:54:34,410 --> 00:54:35,430

Tony Tidbit: Thank you, Sonya.

: 1202

00:54:35,530 --> 00:54:36,060

Thank you.

: 1203

00:54:36,420 --> 00:54:38,160

So I think it's now time for.

: 1204

00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:40,850

Tony's tidbit.

: 1205

00:54:41,110 --> 00:54:41,710

All right.

: 1206

00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:47,820

So the tidbit is as always is based

on the conversation that we had today.

: 1207

00:54:48,210 --> 00:54:52,680

So the tidbit is in order for us

to cultivate black leadership,

: 1208

00:54:53,380 --> 00:54:58,314

we must first realize that

racism is inherently embedded.

: 1209

00:54:58,845 --> 00:55:04,485

In many of our organizations, and you

heard a lot about that today with Sonia,

: 1210

00:55:04,805 --> 00:55:08,455

um, about some of the issues that she

dealt with as being a black leader,

: 1211

00:55:08,455 --> 00:55:10,585

not just her, a lot of other people.

: 1212

00:55:10,585 --> 00:55:12,335

So we want to thank her for coming on.

: 1213

00:55:12,455 --> 00:55:18,570

So I think it's now time for

our need to know with Nsenga.

: 1214

00:55:18,735 --> 00:55:20,175

Nsenga what do we

: 1215

00:55:20,175 --> 00:55:20,845

Nsenga Burton: need to know?

: 1216

00:55:21,035 --> 00:55:25,635

Hi, this is Nsenga Burton bringing

you your need to know moment today.

: 1217

00:55:25,985 --> 00:55:30,405

And today we're going to be talking about

the wonderful DEI, diversity, equity, and

: 1218

00:55:30,405 --> 00:55:36,375

inclusion, which is under attack by many,

many different factions of our society,

: 1219

00:55:36,775 --> 00:55:42,525

um, DEI, which is really about inclusion

and belonging and making sure that people

: 1220

00:55:42,525 --> 00:55:48,845

who are usually qualified and overly

qualified, um, have access to the same,

: 1221

00:55:49,255 --> 00:55:55,385

um, Types of jobs, education, you know,

various institutions as those who have

: 1222

00:55:55,385 --> 00:56:01,395

been part of the ruling class is what we

would say in academic setting, but those

: 1223

00:56:01,395 --> 00:56:03,045

who have been historically empowered.

: 1224

00:56:03,335 --> 00:56:07,555

So, you know, diversity, equity and

inclusion is really about historically

: 1225

00:56:07,555 --> 00:56:11,265

disenfranchised populations and

how to bring them into the fold

: 1226

00:56:11,275 --> 00:56:15,334

in a way that is equitable as we

try to create a more flexible.

: 1227

00:56:15,335 --> 00:56:19,415

Fair and just, or some would

say egalitarian society.

: 1228

00:56:19,755 --> 00:56:21,115

So it's been really interesting.

: 1229

00:56:21,145 --> 00:56:27,345

Um, as of late, the DEI, um, has become

sort of a Republican dog whistle, um,

: 1230

00:56:27,955 --> 00:56:34,165

and has been presented as something

other than the desire to create a more

: 1231

00:56:34,195 --> 00:56:40,495

equitable and just society, but it has

become a term that is now, um, aligned

: 1232

00:56:40,495 --> 00:56:49,835

with being less than, uh, with being,

um, Unqualified with being a part of a

: 1233

00:56:49,845 --> 00:56:53,105

movement, and this is not true, right?

: 1234

00:56:53,105 --> 00:56:57,225

These are just what people are

saying and doing in order to take

: 1235

00:56:57,225 --> 00:57:01,455

away opportunities from historically

disenfranchised populations.

: 1236

00:57:01,795 --> 00:57:05,545

Um, and these options that they otherwise

would not have, because we do know

: 1237

00:57:05,555 --> 00:57:09,725

when these members of historically

disenfranchised populations met all the

: 1238

00:57:09,725 --> 00:57:13,665

criteria, met all of the qualifications,

exceeded those qualifications.

: 1239

00:57:13,675 --> 00:57:15,155

They still were not given the nod.

: 1240

00:57:15,415 --> 00:57:16,965

They still were not admitted to schools.

: 1241

00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,790

They still were not given jobs or awarded

jobs that they had applied for some

: 1242

00:57:21,830 --> 00:57:23,740

weren't even allowed to have interviews.

: 1243

00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:24,420

Right?

: 1244

00:57:24,420 --> 00:57:28,990

And so all of these things, um, are

tied up in diversity, equity and

: 1245

00:57:28,990 --> 00:57:33,810

inclusion and why, you know, diversity,

equity and inclusion is important.

: 1246

00:57:34,070 --> 00:57:38,060

So, an example of what I'm talking

about, when we talk about a dog whistle,

: 1247

00:57:38,410 --> 00:57:43,900

um, is when you change the meaning of

something, so that it becomes, um, you

: 1248

00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:46,910

know, It becomes a negative, right?

: 1249

00:57:46,910 --> 00:57:50,910

It becomes, uh, something other

than what his original intent is.

: 1250

00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:56,880

So example, uh, you all have been

watching, uh, the unfolding of, or the

: 1251

00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:01,890

aftermath of the collapse of the Francis

Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore last month.

: 1252

00:58:02,050 --> 00:58:04,760

You know, it's in Maryland and, um.

: 1253

00:58:05,155 --> 00:58:07,375

You know, it was purely an accident.

: 1254

00:58:07,415 --> 00:58:10,525

It's still under investigation,

but for all intents and purposes,

: 1255

00:58:10,565 --> 00:58:12,715

it was an accident that happened.

: 1256

00:58:13,135 --> 00:58:18,005

Uh, in fact, the people who warned,

uh, the police, uh, who subsequently

: 1257

00:58:18,005 --> 00:58:20,905

died in the accident, the only

people to have died in the accident,

: 1258

00:58:21,275 --> 00:58:23,895

uh, were, uh, immigrants, right?

: 1259

00:58:24,295 --> 00:58:27,275

So, um, and Latinx immigrants,

um, who were working.

: 1260

00:58:27,555 --> 00:58:31,085

Um, I say all of those things to say,

this is an accident that happened.

: 1261

00:58:32,460 --> 00:58:34,890

The Mayor of Baltimore is

Brandon Scott, a young man.

: 1262

00:58:34,890 --> 00:58:41,260

He's 39 years old, native Baltimorean,

and the governor of Maryland

: 1263

00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:45,850

Wes Moore, uh, again, native

Baltimorean, um, African American.

: 1264

00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:49,440

Um, and the Port Commissioner

is a black woman named Corinthia

: 1265

00:58:49,445 --> 00:58:51,450

Barber, again, native Baltimorean.

: 1266

00:58:51,780 --> 00:58:55,250

And what happened, uh, or some

of the things that you might've

: 1267

00:58:55,250 --> 00:58:59,870

seen is, um, people on Twitter

saying, oh, the DEI, mayor.

: 1268

00:59:01,050 --> 00:59:03,860

Um, this is why this accident

happened because they have an

: 1269

00:59:03,950 --> 00:59:06,170

unqualified DEI Mayor in place.

: 1270

00:59:06,540 --> 00:59:09,390

This is why this accident happened

because they have an unqualified

: 1271

00:59:09,970 --> 00:59:11,520

DEI port commissioner in place.

: 1272

00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,600

This is why this accident happened

because we have the DEI governor

: 1273

00:59:15,870 --> 00:59:18,230

unqualified DEI governor in place.

: 1274

00:59:18,290 --> 00:59:18,580

Right?

: 1275

00:59:18,580 --> 00:59:22,510

So it's this idea that anything that

is diverse, particularly black, right?

: 1276

00:59:22,510 --> 00:59:26,700

It's rooted in anti black racism, but

anything that is diverse, anything that is

: 1277

00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:29,380

black has to be less than an unqualified.

: 1278

00:59:29,810 --> 00:59:34,260

Even when the facts state the opposite.

: 1279

00:59:34,590 --> 00:59:38,470

And so you have like Phil Lyman,

who's a GOP Republican gubernatorial

: 1280

00:59:38,470 --> 00:59:43,180

candidate out of Utah, who's saying,

you know, calling them the DEIs, right.

: 1281

00:59:43,540 --> 00:59:45,800

Um, versus calling them by their names.

: 1282

00:59:45,830 --> 00:59:51,700

And so what this does is first of

all, it makes people have, um, an

: 1283

00:59:51,710 --> 00:59:53,790

incorrect understanding of what DEI is.

: 1284

00:59:54,295 --> 00:59:54,695

Right?

: 1285

00:59:54,695 --> 00:59:56,485

And maligns and mislabels.

: 1286

00:59:56,955 --> 01:00:01,045

This is the 2nd part maligns and

mislabels people and what they're doing.

: 1287

01:00:01,775 --> 01:00:06,435

3rd, it dehumanizes whole human beings

like Wes Moore and Brandon Scott and

: 1288

01:00:06,435 --> 01:00:12,005

Corinthia Barber, uh, it dehumanizes

them so that you feel okay about calling

: 1289

01:00:12,005 --> 01:00:14,065

them less than or under qualified.

: 1290

01:00:15,535 --> 01:00:16,235

Because.

: 1291

01:00:16,775 --> 01:00:18,625

You know, you value them less, right?

: 1292

01:00:18,635 --> 01:00:22,595

All of those things happen when you

use these dog whistle tactics, right?

: 1293

01:00:23,035 --> 01:00:26,545

You use these taxes to bring

out the conservatives, to bring

: 1294

01:00:26,565 --> 01:00:29,955

out the people to criticize, um,

who have no real information.

: 1295

01:00:30,355 --> 01:00:32,545

Um, and the same thing would

have happened had you had

: 1296

01:00:32,695 --> 01:00:34,125

Republicans in office at that time.

: 1297

01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:34,820

Right.

: 1298

01:00:35,170 --> 01:00:40,040

This was an accident was that was

unavoidable, um, to a large extent.

: 1299

01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:45,450

Um, and then the challenges that were

happening, um, have nothing to do with

: 1300

01:00:45,450 --> 01:00:47,830

those individuals or their qualifications.

: 1301

01:00:47,850 --> 01:00:52,090

So, why would you do that

other than to mislead people?

: 1302

01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:55,560

So I'm gonna wrap this up,

but I just wanted to be clear.

: 1303

01:00:55,940 --> 01:00:59,790

Um, that DEI which is

actually a positive thing.

: 1304

01:00:59,830 --> 01:01:04,660

It's about diversity, equity, inclusion

and belonging, creating a sense of

: 1305

01:01:04,660 --> 01:01:09,400

belonging so that people can be a part

of whatever institution, business,

: 1306

01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:15,590

church, educational institution, whatever

institution, um, they can be a part of

: 1307

01:01:15,590 --> 01:01:20,240

it if they are qualified, if they want

to, and then if they do gain admittance.

: 1308

01:01:21,180 --> 01:01:24,720

That they are treated fairly and

equitably once they are there.

: 1309

01:01:24,790 --> 01:01:27,030

That is what diversity equity

and inclusion is about.

: 1310

01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:30,890

It's not about, you know,

giving handouts to people.

: 1311

01:01:30,890 --> 01:01:35,260

It's not about putting people in places

who are unqualified, even though we've

: 1312

01:01:35,260 --> 01:01:39,750

seen a lot of that happening, particularly

under this previous administration,

: 1313

01:01:40,060 --> 01:01:44,390

national administration, which is

why the mail system is in a complete

: 1314

01:01:44,410 --> 01:01:48,750

disarray and horribly run currently.

: 1315

01:01:49,140 --> 01:01:51,080

But you know, we don't

talk about that person.

: 1316

01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,670

We don't say, Oh, they put

another white man in there.

: 1317

01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:57,030

So it's going to be terrible

because it's ridiculous.

: 1318

01:01:57,070 --> 01:01:58,030

That sounds ridiculous.

: 1319

01:01:58,030 --> 01:01:58,330

Right?

: 1320

01:01:58,740 --> 01:01:59,100

Yeah.

: 1321

01:01:59,290 --> 01:01:59,690

Okay.

: 1322

01:01:59,710 --> 01:02:01,220

And I know it's not equally yoked.

: 1323

01:02:01,270 --> 01:02:06,430

What I am saying is, and it's not an equal

argument because of the power dynamics.

: 1324

01:02:06,820 --> 01:02:09,730

But what I'm saying to you

is DEI is a good thing.

: 1325

01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:13,980

DEI is about giving people who

are qualified and who have paid

: 1326

01:02:13,980 --> 01:02:17,440

their dues and who have done

what they needed to do a shot.

: 1327

01:02:18,115 --> 01:02:21,815

In a place, often a workplace, often

educational institution that they

: 1328

01:02:21,815 --> 01:02:26,915

normally would not get the nod for

just because they're actually black,

: 1329

01:02:27,355 --> 01:02:30,975

or they're actually LatinX, or

they're Asian, or they're whatever.

: 1330

01:02:31,045 --> 01:02:31,315

Right?

: 1331

01:02:31,315 --> 01:02:33,205

They wouldn't get the nod necessarily.

: 1332

01:02:33,945 --> 01:02:35,255

So that's what it is about.

: 1333

01:02:35,265 --> 01:02:35,855

It's about.

: 1334

01:02:36,235 --> 01:02:37,815

Inclusion, right?

: 1335

01:02:37,815 --> 01:02:42,425

Not about unqualified people

getting jobs they don't deserve and

: 1336

01:02:42,425 --> 01:02:43,985

running the country into the ground.

: 1337

01:02:44,495 --> 01:02:47,235

And that is your need to

know note from Nsenga.

: 1338

01:02:47,695 --> 01:02:48,265

Tony Tidbit: Wow.

: 1339

01:02:48,275 --> 01:02:49,275

Thanks Nsenga.

: 1340

01:02:49,295 --> 01:02:50,765

That's some great information.

: 1341

01:02:50,775 --> 01:02:51,775

Really appreciate it.

: 1342

01:02:51,775 --> 01:02:53,965

Can't wait to hear what

you have next week.

: 1343

01:02:54,535 --> 01:02:59,945

So, I, and for next week, we want you to

join another episode of a Black Executive

: 1344

01:02:59,945 --> 01:03:04,235

Perspective Podcast where we're gonna

basically next week is going to be, oh,

: 1345

01:03:04,235 --> 01:03:10,005

hold on, I see, yeah, uh, next week is

going to be The Voices of the African

: 1346

01:03:10,355 --> 01:03:14,775

Diaspora, Stories Across Continents,

so you definitely don't want to miss

: 1347

01:03:14,815 --> 01:03:19,170

this, but one of the things that we want

you to do Which is very important, is

: 1348

01:03:19,170 --> 01:03:24,350

incorporate our motto, LESS, L E S S.

: 1349

01:03:24,380 --> 01:03:30,310

Because we're looking to, we're looking

to decrease racism, any, any isms.

: 1350

01:03:30,340 --> 01:03:32,540

So first, L means learn.

: 1351

01:03:32,670 --> 01:03:37,940

You want to educate about other

cultures, history, other people.

: 1352

01:03:37,950 --> 01:03:40,750

Then once you learn, E stands for empathy.

: 1353

01:03:40,930 --> 01:03:43,850

That should give you more,

you should be more empathetic

: 1354

01:03:44,100 --> 01:03:45,480

to your fellow human beings.

: 1355

01:03:45,930 --> 01:03:47,880

And then S stands for share.

: 1356

01:03:48,190 --> 01:03:52,320

Share what you learn to others

so more people can be educated.

: 1357

01:03:52,540 --> 01:03:54,630

And then the final S stands for stop.

: 1358

01:03:54,975 --> 01:03:59,775

We want to stop racism, discrimination,

wherever it runs up in our face.

: 1359

01:03:59,785 --> 01:04:03,475

So when grandma at the Thanksgiving

table said something inappropriate, you

: 1360

01:04:03,475 --> 01:04:05,775

say, grandma, you can't say that, right?

: 1361

01:04:05,805 --> 01:04:10,495

So if everybody's incorporating less,

we'll have a fair kind of world.

: 1362

01:04:10,645 --> 01:04:12,975

And these are the things

that you can put in action.

: 1363

01:04:13,285 --> 01:04:13,965

And control.

: 1364

01:04:14,055 --> 01:04:15,485

So let's everybody do that.

: 1365

01:04:15,615 --> 01:04:18,725

So continue to follow a black

executive perspective podcast,

: 1366

01:04:18,955 --> 01:04:20,605

wherever you get your podcast.

: 1367

01:04:20,775 --> 01:04:26,085

And you can follow us on all our

socials on Facebook, LinkedIn, X, uh,

: 1368

01:04:26,085 --> 01:04:30,025

uh, Tik TOK and Instagram at ablackexe.

: 1369

01:04:30,045 --> 01:04:33,965

So I hope you enjoy

our conversation today.

: 1370

01:04:34,615 --> 01:04:39,480

The chat, The Illusion of Power-Challenges

Faced by Black Women Executives I want

: 1371

01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,620

to thank our guests, Sonya McNaughton.

: 1372

01:04:42,010 --> 01:04:45,050

I want to thank the people

behind the glass, AA.

: 1373

01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:48,290

And we got Noel all helping

it out, making things work.

: 1374

01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:50,120

And so we talked about it.

: 1375

01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:50,960

We love you.

: 1376

01:04:51,550 --> 01:04:53,290

And we're out.

: 1377

01:04:53,340 --> 01:04:54,940

Narrator: A Black executive Perspective

: 1378

01:04:54,940 --> 01:04:56,100

A Black Executive Perspective.