G-2LCWV30QZ8 Interracial Marriage Insights: Fathers Reflect 57 Years After Loving v. Virginia - TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective

Episode 143

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Published on:

11th Jun 2024

57 Years after Loving v. Virginia: Fathers in Interracial Marriages Speak Out.

Episode Title:

Episode Audio Link: https://podcast.ablackexec.com/episode/interracial-marriage-insights-fathers-reflect-57-years-after-loving-v-virginia

Episode Video Link:

In this episode of the Black Executive Perspective Podcast, host Tony Tidbit discusses

the complexities of interracial marriage, 57 years after the landmark Supreme Court decision in Loving v. Virginia. Featuring guests Brian Stern, Shawn Norville, and Robert Townes, the episode delves into personal experiences, public discrimination, navigating children's identity issues, and confronting racial microaggressions. The episode also highlights the importance of empathy, understanding, and resilience in interracial relationships today, while offering practical advice on preparing children for a diverse world.


▶︎ In This Episode

  1. 00:00: Introduction and Personal Experiences
  2. 00:49: Podcast Introduction and Background
  3. 01:30: Historical Context: Loving v. Virginia
  4. 02:39: Discussion on Interracial Relationships
  5. 04:11: Guest Introductions and Backgrounds
  6. 05:25: Challenges and Perspectives on Interracial Marriages
  7. 07:56: Navigating Public Perception and Discrimination
  8. 11:42: Personal Stories and Reflections
  9. 29:59: Navigating Sensitivity and Awareness
  10. 30:27: Overcoming Social Challenges in Interracial Relationships
  11. 31:09: Building Confidence and Resilience
  12. 32:42: Parental Concerns and Children's Experiences
  13. 37:27: Cultural Integration and Education
  14. 47:43: Addressing Outrageous Situations and Microaggressions
  15. 55:35: Final Thoughts and Reflections

🔗 Resources

Links and resources mentioned in this episode:


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Transcript
Brian Stern:

I think my experience is a little bit different, clearly,

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because I am the white guy, um,

and With a, uh, a Filipino woman.

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I think, you know, coming from her

culture, you just don't talk about race.

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It's just something like, she

just didn't want to talk about it.

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And I think coming from the outside,

coming from a very sheltered, non diverse

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background, I became very hypersensitive

to every little thing that I thought

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was some sort of racial slight.

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Whether it was in a restaurant,

not getting served or seated was,

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um,

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you know, in a store not being helped or

having my wife being watched because she

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came in and speaking a different language

on the phone to her sister or something.

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Tony Tidbit: We'll discuss race and

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how it plays a factor and how

we didn't even talk about this

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topic because we were afraid.

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BEP Narrator: A Black

Executive Perspective.

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Tony Tidbit: Welcome to a Black Executive

Perspective podcast, a safe space where

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we discuss all matters related to race,

Especially race in corporate America.

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Bra I'm your host, Tony Tidbit.

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And again, today we're at the

University of New Haven in

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sunny New Haven, Connecticut.

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We want to thank the University of New

Haven for partnering with the Black

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Executive Perspective Podcast, allowing

us to use their fabulous podcast studio.

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Go Chargers.

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Also, please check out our

partners, Code M Magazine, whose

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mission is to save the black family

by first saving the black man.

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Check them out at Code M Magazine.

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History Channel Narrator:

th,:

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m., a county sheriff entered the

home of Virginia couple Richard and

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Mildred Loving, forced them out of

their bed and placed them under arrest.

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Their crime, interracial marriage.

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They were tried and found guilty

of violating Virginia's Racial

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Integrity Act of 1924, a series of

laws that made race mixing illegal.

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On June 12th, 1967, the court unanimously

struck down the Virginia Marriage Ban

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and overturned the Lovings Conviction.

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The court ruling reverberated across

America, invalidating anti miscegenation

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laws not only in Virginia, but in 16

other states that held them as well.

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After winning their case, the

Lovings were finally free to do

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what they wanted to do all along.

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They lived quietly in Virginia as husband

wife until Richard's death in:

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Tony Tidbit: So today, we

commemorate the anniversary of

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the Supreme Court case Loving v.

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Virginia, which legalized interracial

marriage here in the United States.

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We'll dive deeper into complexities 57

years later of interracial relationships.

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Following our previous discussion of

challenges faced by biracial teenagers

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in our episode Too Black to be White

and Too White to be Black, today we

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shift our focus to their fathers.

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Who will share their personal experiences

regarding their interracial, interracial

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marriages, as well, as well as tackling

public discrimination, navigating

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their children's identity issues and

confronting racial microaggressions.

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Robert Townsend, Brian Stern, and Shawn

Norville, welcome to a Black Executive

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Perspective Podcast, my brothers.

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Podcast, my brothers.

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Robert Townes: Thank you for having us.

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Brian Stern: Thank

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you.

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Shawn Norville: Glad to be here.

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Tony Tidbit: Well, number one, we want to

thank you for investing the time to come

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on to talk about a very important topic.

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Um, and as you heard, or

excuse me, as you saw the clip.

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57 years later, uh, interracial

marriage was struck down, the

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ban against interracial marriage

was struck down in:

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Now we're 57 years later.

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So it would be great to hear you guys

perspective on your relationships,

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your family, your children.

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And all the things that you deal with.

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So everybody's definitely interested

to learn more about your experiences.

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So to kick this off, it'll be

great if we can get a little

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bit background from everyone.

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So starting with Brian, you go first.

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Please introduce yourself.

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Tell us about your current

occupation, where you're living and

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the racial makeup of your spouse.

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Brian Stern: Sure.

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Thank you for having me back, Tony.

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It's great to be with

you again on the podcast.

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I really appreciate the

opportunity to, uh, to speak.

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Um, so giving just a little bit of

background, uh, on me, uh, currently

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I help people become entrepreneurs.

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That's my job.

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I coach people in the

world of entrepreneur.

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Um, as far as my marriage, I am

coming up on my 16th anniversary.

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Uh, being married to a very beautiful

Filipino woman who was born and raised

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in a very rural part of the Philippines.

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She came over here as an

adult, um, when we met.

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And um, we have a beautiful

daughter at the age of 13.

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So a brand new teenager in the

household, which is a whole other thing

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to have fun to talk about as well.

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Tony Tidbit: I can imagine, my friend.

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And where are you residing at, Brian?

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Brian Stern: I am on the Jersey shore.

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Okay, great.

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Tony Tidbit: So

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he's in New Jersey.

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So welcome my brother.

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And again, for those who, um,

probably not aware, Brian Stern came

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on and talked about interracial,

uh, his interracial, um, marriage

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back in one of our earlier episodes.

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So I'm so glad you came back, my friend,

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Shawn,

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Shawn Norville: my brother, um,

Shawn Norville, uh, My wife and I

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have been married for 18 years, but

we've known each other since college.

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So we're coming up on a

quarter century at this point.

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Um, I am from the island of Barbados.

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Uh, my wife, uh, is from, um,

Southeast Asia from India and

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it's where her family's from.

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And, uh, you know, we reside

currently right now in Los Angeles,

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but we're formerly, uh, New York

residents, uh, New York proud.

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Um, our kids now are eight.

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Six, four, and two, um,

three boys and one girl.

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And, uh, yeah, they're, uh, quite

the project management nightmare.

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Tony Tidbit: Seems like you got

your hands full, my brother.

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So it's all good though.

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That's all good.

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So again, thanks, Shawn.

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Really appreciate you joining a

black executive perspective to talk

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about this topic, Robert towns.

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Robert Townes: How are you doing?

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Thank you for having me.

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And thank you for opening up

this dialogue, because I think

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this is very important to have.

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You know, our perspective

on this, this topic.

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And I look forward to diving

into this conversation more.

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So Robert Towns, I am a, um, a director

of external affairs at a local children's

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museum in Norwalk, Connecticut.

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I live in Connecticut, been

married to my wife for 19 years.

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We're coming up on 20 this October.

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We're looking forward to celebrating that.

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I have a 16 year old boy

and a 14 year old girl.

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I'm very excited to talk about this for,

uh, A lot of reasons, including the fact

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that we mentioned Loving versus Virginia.

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My family is from Virginia originally.

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Um, I grew up in Connecticut,

but my family's from Virginia.

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So I drive past that historical marker

on Route 301 in Virginia all the time

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that marks where they were arrested.

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And so, um, this is something that I've

thought about, you know, Supreme Court

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decisions and the current climate.

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And it's like, this is time

to talk about this again.

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So thank you for having me.

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Tony Tidbit: Thanks, my brother.

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I really appreciate that.

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And, and the racial makeup of

your wife, your lovely wife.

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Robert Townes: Oh, sorry about that.

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No worries.

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Yes.

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Racial makeup of my family.

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My, my wife is, uh, uh, Italian

Irish, you know, from, like I

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said, here in, uh, Connecticut.

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And I'm a black American,

uh, family from Virginia.

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And, uh, you know, uh, one of the

things about our, our family as well

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is, uh, that, that whole Virginia thing,

you know, we go into the deep South

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sometimes and it is a different place.

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And 1967 still exists in

certain pockets of Virginia.

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So, um, again, like I said, you know,

the fact that my white wife can go down

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there, I, I, I'm really looking forward

to being able to dive deeper into this.

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Tony Tidbit: Okay, brah.

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Well, let's start with

you on this then, right?

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Um, tell us, why did you want to come

on the black executive perspective

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podcast to talk about this, this topic?

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Robert Townes: The biggest reason is

because I'm concerned about the present.

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I know we talk about 1967 as if

that's a long time ago, but so

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much of what's happening today.

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May counteract a lot of the progress

that's been made over the last few

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years in last, you know, uh, 50

something years Um, i'm talking

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about my my mom really quickly.

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Um, the movie remember the titans

that's:

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about the desegregation of a

high school in northern virginia.

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Well, that was also my mom's senior

year I was born in:

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have to go back into the history

books to talk about what the time

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was like before All of this happened.

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I can just talk to my mom about it.

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I'm blessed that she's still

with us to be able to do that.

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And that's part of the conversation

right now is we tend to think that

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so much of this stuff happened

so long ago and it really didn't.

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And you know, we still have to be

vocal about it right now so we can

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ensure that these rights sustain.

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We don't want to go backwards.

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Tony Tidbit: Exactly.

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My brother.

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Thank you for that.

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Brian, why did you want to come

on and BEP to talk about this?

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Brian Stern: Well, I have the same

reasons that Robert mentioned.

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Number one.

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You know, the history repeats

itself if you don't learn from it.

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And I think we can be part of

helping to educate people a little

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bit through our experiences.

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Um, and I think the, the second reason

is, and we talked about this a little

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bit last time, is that this is not a

topic that I have spent a lot of time

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talking about, even with my own wife.

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And I, you know, I actually appreciate

having a safe space to come and

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talk about these issues, um, and,

and learn from, from others that

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are experiencing a lot of the same

things that I may be experiencing.

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Tony Tidbit: Thanks, man.

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Shawn?

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Shawn Norville: Uh, for me, it's

about, um, when we talk about

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Today's world in the youth.

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Uh, you know, Robert hit it on it.

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Um, I always talk to all the young

kids that I mentor and tell them how

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much progress we've made in the world.

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You know, I start with the positive

and said, it's been if you really

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think about the grand scheme of world

things, we've made great strides.

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Black people in a short period

of time, but we cannot forget.

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How much more we have to go.

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And for some reason, this country,

ever since we've had a black president

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has forgotten that there's racism that

exists in this world in this country.

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And for us, it's rapidly deteriorating

the strides that we've made.

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And for some of us who, you know, grew

up a little bit younger, maybe in the

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90s, you know, it feels like we fell

asleep at the wheel a little bit.

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And there's a, there's a

movement that's sort of shifting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The fabric, the laws in our country.

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Um, and if we're not steadfast in

terms of how we respond to it, we

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could lose a lot of different things.

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And as a person who has biracial kids,

there's always a talk about them being

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black or the one drop rule, or, you

know, being of a different ethnicity,

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um, and not sort of not being either

or, um, but for them, I want them to

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understand their ethnicity on both sides,

not just, you know, one or the other.

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But it's important for

me to have this dialogue.

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Uh, learn, give my experience so that

other people out there in the community

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can understand and learn from that.

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And also just reach out to say,

hey, look, there's somebody

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else having the same issues.

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You know, my kids are relatively

young, but they face racism at

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quite a young age from kindergarten

down to, you know, 2nd grade.

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And that's why I wanted to be on

here to just talk about those things.

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So people can be cognizant and aware.

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Tony Tidbit: Thank all three of you.

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I really appreciate that.

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And you guys totally make sense.

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And I, I cannot disagree

with anything you all said.

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So let me ask you this question.

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Are you guys ready to talk about it?

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Robert Townes: Yeah,

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Shawn Norville: absolutely.

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Tony Tidbit: All right, my

brothers, let's talk about it.

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So, Shawn, I'm going to

back up to you, my friend.

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So, you know, you guys

been married 19 years.

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You're originally from the

East coast, New York, correct?

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So just briefly talk a little

bit about where you grow up.

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And then the follow up question I have,

did you ever, See yourself when you

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were young, um, being in an interracial

relationship and not that you're not

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not that you're old today, my brother

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I'm talking tadpole time.

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Okay.

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So so when you were tadpole,

did you see yourself being in

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an interracial relationship?

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Shawn Norville: Honestly, no.

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Um, from what I know and where, and

again, I, and I, I speak to my experience

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and I, my family's from Barbados, and

if you understand how the slave trade

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worked, you understand there's a lot

of people from, um, Southeast Asia and

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from India who have been, uh, you know,

part of that process made it to Africa

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and some parts of South America and

some parts of the Caribbean islands.

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So when I talk about being an

inter interracial marriage.

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The woman that I've married historically

and from where I'm from, where she

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visually looks like, looks like

people that where I'm from, right.

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And from the islands that I, that I had,

you know, that we sort of commerce with.

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So for me, it wasn't like I was being

an interracial marriage or I was

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marrying somebody outside of my culture

because I really married someone that

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I thought was someone to my culture.

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Um, but it was everyone else's

viewpoint of who I was marrying

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and also her family as well.

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So it was interesting dynamic

and growing up in New York.

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Uh, Brooklyn specifically

where you're spoiled with the

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melting pot that you are in.

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Uh, but once you leave those

areas of comfort and safety,

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everyone looks at you differently.

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Everyone has different questions and then

everyone treats you a little sort of way.

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So, you know, that's a

little bit about, about us.

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Tony Tidbit: Oh, thanks buddy.

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Brian, let me pose the same

question to you, my brother.

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Brian Stern: So I grew up

in rural New Jersey, um, out

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in, you know, horse country.

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And it was incredibly, incredibly, for

lack of a better term, white, right?

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Very little diversity.

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Um, so no, I, I really did not

conceive of, of being in an interracial

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relationship when I grew older.

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Um, so

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the big difference for me was when I

moved to New York and getting exposure.

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To just an incredible array of

different cultures and experiences

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that really opened my eyes.

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Um,

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but you know, from a, from a

family standpoint, I think my

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family was always open to the idea.

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There wasn't any, any tension

or any, um, issue there.

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It was just never something

that was part of our discussion.

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Tony Tidbit: Right,

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right, right.

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Robert, what about you, my man?

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I know you, Virginia, and so talk, speak.

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Robert Townes: So, so I grew up, but

I grew up in Southern Connecticut.

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I grew up in Stanford.

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So right here in the tri state area.

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So a lot of diversity in my town.

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But I talk about those Virginia

years because I used to

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spend my summers in Virginia.

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So a lot of formative time

away from the diversity that

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I knew existed back at home.

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But then you go to Virginia and

everything was black and white,

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black and white, black and white.

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So for me growing up, did I

ever think that I would be in

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an interracial relationship?

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I grew up with a lot of people from a lot

of diverse backgrounds, but never did.

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I never thought about it at all.

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Um, and, uh, one of the things with

my family is they've always been open

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to me being able to be with whoever

I wanted to be and bring home who I

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brought home, but, um, didn't have to

walk far to hear other things as well.

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And, uh, you know, I know for instance,

uh, within the black community, some

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people would say, you know, Hey.

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If she can't use her comb, don't

bring her home, you know, so I

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would hear the stuff like that.

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But then also, growing up in Stanford,

I knew what those town lines meant.

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So, crossing into certain

communities, like a New Canaan

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or a Darien or a Greenwich.

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And knowing that me, I'm not welcome.

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And so, you know, like people,

you know, know that they don't

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want to bring, don't want me to be

brought home to daddy, so to speak.

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Um,

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Tony Tidbit: Well, just hold on one

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second, Robert, just so everybody's

on the same page because not

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everybody's from Connecticut.

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So when you say Darien and So

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Robert Townes: Greenwich,

Stanford, Darien, they're the

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southern most towns or cities.

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In Connecticut, about 30 miles away

from New York City, but they call

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a nickname for Fairfield County,

Connecticut is the Gold Coast.

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And those are three of the wealthiest

towns in the United States as well.

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So Stanford is a very diverse

socioeconomic and racially diverse

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area, town of about 130, 140, 000.

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But those other surrounding

towns are very, very different.

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Um, you know, and, uh, very wealthy

and, um, as a, as, as a matter

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of course, a lot of times not

as welcoming to the diversity,

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or at least they were back then.

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Tony Tidbit: Right.

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Not, not, and it wasn't a very diverse.

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It's not a very diverse.

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Not, not

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Robert Townes: diverse at all.

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You know, socioeconomically,

everybody's pretty wealthy.

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Got it.

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So

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Tony Tidbit: let me ask you

this and I'll start with Brian.

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So what attracted you?

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So your wife is Asian.

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What attracted you to your wife?

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Brian Stern: What a loaded question, huh?

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Don't

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Speaker 3: mess up.

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Brian Stern: Yeah, I

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know, right?

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She's standing right behind me.

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Um, She was introduced

to me through a friend.

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And I think, you know, the friend thought

we had a lot in common and we did.

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Um, so I think a lot of it wasn't

the differences between us.

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It was just the commonality, similar

sense of humor, um, similar passions

355

:

for, you know, some of our hobbies, like

traveling and, um, you know, exploring.

356

:

Different things culturally

that we were both attracted to.

357

:

I think it was a lot

of those commonalities.

358

:

I mean, it's the same as any

relationship, I suppose, right?

359

:

It's the things that dry together.

360

:

Aren't going to be the commonalities

versus the differences.

361

:

So I don't know.

362

:

I don't think that race had any, any

factor in what brought us together at all.

363

:

It certainly has played a factor since

we've been together, but not part of the

364

:

initiation of the relationship at all.

365

:

Tony Tidbit: Shawn.

366

:

Shawn Norville: Huh?

367

:

That's a, that feels like one

of those Steve Harvey family.

368

:

Few questions.

369

:

When you, if you answer it the

wrong way, you might be on the

370

:

couch for the next week, you

371

:

Tony Tidbit: can get no point.

372

:

So you can get a hundred points.

373

:

Shawn Norville: No, it's, um, really

and truly, it was, uh, her values,

374

:

um, were very, they mimicked a lot of

my values, the way she, um, you know,

375

:

conducted herself with her parents,

the way she viewed life, the way she

376

:

viewed family, um, the way she operated.

377

:

Yeah.

378

:

It was very, uh, similar and in line

with how I and my family operate, you

379

:

know, and the way I treated my mother,

the way my, I respected my father.

380

:

And when we, we were really best

friends, uh, in the beginning.

381

:

And it was funny because we met in

accounting, which was probably one of

382

:

my, my, my, one of my best subjects.

383

:

But like, I was just like, oh, I was

just, lemme just really go all in this.

384

:

And I, and I got to the point

where she was like, looking at my

385

:

notes, I'm like, wait a second.

386

:

Stereotypically, I might also

be looking at your notes, right?

387

:

And we just formed a bond where

we listen to the same music, ate

388

:

similar foods, like they have curry.

389

:

We have different curries.

390

:

They have roti.

391

:

We have a little bit of variation of roti.

392

:

Again, we talked about that, that slave

trade, uh, similarity or alignment.

393

:

And funny enough, many people don't

even understand or realize that

394

:

connection that we built that.

395

:

Baseline connection.

396

:

And that's what attracted me to her.

397

:

Um, you know, the shared values,

the shared cultural symbolism of

398

:

what her family life was like.

399

:

Well, mine was like, it just made

like a symbiotic relationship.

400

:

You know, you joined that with living

in similar settings and having similar

401

:

familiarity, uh, parent parental

structures and, you know, your mom

402

:

being the matriarch and, you know,

just things of that nature, but still

403

:

respecting the family dynamic of

The husband and what he does in the

404

:

relationship and, and, and being the

father and what that understands.

405

:

And as you get older, you're going

to appreciate that individual

406

:

and that person more and more to

want to build a family with them.

407

:

And that's what attracted me to my wife.

408

:

Tony Tidbit: Got it.

409

:

Got it.

410

:

And Robert, I know your wife, Shannon.

411

:

So talk to

412

:

me, my man, and you know,

she's going to listen to this.

413

:

So,

414

:

Robert Townes: oh, yes.

415

:

Uh, you know, so we, we met at work.

416

:

We both worked at a local television

station in New Haven, Connecticut.

417

:

And the first thing that I

would say about it is that we

418

:

would have fun together at work.

419

:

Lots of times laughing,

joking, stuff like that.

420

:

So since the humor was pretty similar.

421

:

Um, despite the fact that

she'll never admit to that.

422

:

But, um, the other thing about it,

though, is we had a lot of commonality

423

:

with the things that we like to do.

424

:

So, um, she worked also at a

hip hop station in New York.

425

:

And so we had a lot of shared

interest in the music and the

426

:

artists that we were listening to.

427

:

Um, we had a good time when

we would hang out together.

428

:

And from there, it just blossomed.

429

:

I mean, and then we realized that there

were a lot of other commonalities as well.

430

:

Both of us, the product of divorced

households and other things like that,

431

:

where there was shared experience.

432

:

Right.

433

:

And so despite the fact that we grew

up in different places and, and,

434

:

um, you know, we had different, you

know, racial backgrounds, you know,

435

:

we had a lot of similarities and,

and, and we have a similar worldview.

436

:

So things just clicked.

437

:

Tony Tidbit: So what I'm hearing, um,

is that at the day, and Brian, you said

438

:

it point blank, that you guys met your

spouses, there was, it was really, it had

439

:

anything to do with the color of their

skin or anything like that, it was about

440

:

commonality, it's about regular things

that you would be attracted to in any,

441

:

with any human being, is that correct?

442

:

Exactly, right?

443

:

So at the day, you're walking the earth.

444

:

And at the end of the day, you run into

your future wife, and you guys became

445

:

friends, and, and a lot of things you guys

like to do together, and the next thing

446

:

you know, the relationship blossomed,

and the last thing that came to your

447

:

mind is like, oh, she's different than

me, and looks different than me, right?

448

:

And you fell in love.

449

:

So let's jettison a little

ahead, a little, uh, ahead now.

450

:

Now, you're together.

451

:

Now, you love each other.

452

:

However, tell us a little bit how the

world saw you, or did you guys have

453

:

certain conversations that you didn't

have, that you didn't see internally?

454

:

Because you just saw each other as the

strengths and the love and this and that.

455

:

But now you got to have conversations

about how you look or how she looks.

456

:

So who wants to kick

that conversation off?

457

:

When did that happen?

458

:

Was that the first date or was

that five years into the marriage?

459

:

Talk to a talk.

460

:

Who want to kick that off?

461

:

I'm gonna throw it out there.

462

:

You guys do it.

463

:

I'll do it.

464

:

Okay.

465

:

Robert.

466

:

Okay.

467

:

Go ahead, buddy.

468

:

You bite.

469

:

I see you biting

470

:

Robert Townes: at the bit.

471

:

One of the, one of the things that,

that from the, from day one and is

472

:

unspoken with me, but I know that

it was there for me is wondering

473

:

how people thought about it.

474

:

What people thought, you know,

because I've already had experienced

475

:

it beforehand, um, did not date

interracially, but even just being

476

:

around people at times hearing,

you know, hearing comments.

477

:

So I remember one time, for instance,

um, New Year's night and New Year's Eve

478

:

out with friends, you know, a diverse

group, and, um, I'm simply being a

479

:

gentleman and walking someone to the

bathroom and this woman behind me

480

:

says, leave her, leave the snowflake.

481

:

I mean, like, you know,

you hear stuff like that.

482

:

So I know and was ready.

483

:

For comments to come my way.

484

:

One thing that didn't happen though,

is those comments didn't really

485

:

happen, but I was prepared to,

to, to think about that and how it

486

:

would impact the way that we were.

487

:

Um, also, um, no, another situation

where, um, going to meet family,

488

:

you know, and just wondering how the

family's going to receive, et cetera.

489

:

And so just trying to make sure, you

know, being ready for whatever happened,

490

:

but being very blessed and very

fortunate that nothing really did happen.

491

:

No comments were really said.

492

:

That ever shook our foundation.

493

:

Tony Tidbit: Did you guys, and

just to be back up a second,

494

:

you said ditch the snowflakes.

495

:

So just so everybody's clear,

like, what does that mean?

496

:

Robert Townes: So, so I was out

like with a diverse group of people.

497

:

And so one of the, one of the

women in the party that we were

498

:

out with was a white woman.

499

:

And so, you know, at one point in the

evening, she wanted to, you know, go

500

:

to the restroom or something like that.

501

:

And nobody was going to go with her.

502

:

So I was just going to go stand

by the door, just be a gentleman.

503

:

Right.

504

:

And there were, there was a

group of black women there and

505

:

they thought I was with her.

506

:

And so one of them said to me,

you know, it's New Year's Eve,

507

:

so people have been drinking.

508

:

And one of those women said to

me, ditch the snowflake, you know,

509

:

like talking about the white woman.

510

:

I'm like, that's my coworker.

511

:

Like I, not, that's not,

we're not like that.

512

:

But, but just knowing that, that,

that kind of mentality exists.

513

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

514

:

Robert Townes: You know, wanted to, you

know, like I said, when I was with, you

515

:

know, Shannon in the beginning, ready to

slings and arrows that might come our way.

516

:

And very blessed that nothing

really happened like that.

517

:

But, you know, we did end up having

to have certain conversations just

518

:

so we were prepared, you know,

knew how we would try to react.

519

:

If something were to happen, but

we're blessed that nothing did happen.

520

:

Tony Tidbit: Got it.

521

:

Got it.

522

:

Who wants to, who wants to go next?

523

:

Shawn Norville: I'll go next.

524

:

Um, for me, we knew from day

one, uh, it would be problematic,

525

:

um, from both cultures.

526

:

Um, historically, like, um, uh, she

knew her, where her family, uh, they

527

:

had just certain, um, Things that they

traditions, uh, cultural, cultural

528

:

norms, uh, that they did, um, you know,

even down to, um, just where the person

529

:

is from and, um, you know, uh, what

language they spoke or what, uh, dialect.

530

:

Right.

531

:

So it's very, you know, it's very

specific, uh, within her culture for

532

:

me, it was around, um, and I'll, you

know, I'll speak more to my side of it.

533

:

Um, because as a black man living in,

um, New York city, you are ultimately, if

534

:

you started dating outside of your race,

you are afraid of the black woman, um,

535

:

and, and, and the, the, the effect that

that's going to have on her, but also

536

:

the response you're going to get right.

537

:

And there's the, you know, the

look or the nod while you're on

538

:

the train with your significant

other or girlfriend or whatever.

539

:

And, um, it sort of eats away at your.

540

:

Your soul, because you almost sometimes

feel like you're betraying your mother

541

:

or your sister, because there's this

connotation that a few days outside of

542

:

your race, you don't love black women the

same as you do other women, because you've

543

:

been brainwashed to like certain types

of hair or certain types of complexions.

544

:

And that complexity definitely added

to, um, I want to say hesitation,

545

:

doubt, um, uh, commitment, um,

you know, to the whole situation.

546

:

We, we live in a world where, where.

547

:

Where, where our bravado and being

an over sexualized women is sort of

548

:

glorified and I wasn't that really kind

of guy where I knew when I met my wife,

549

:

I told her when we were dating that I

was going to marry her and she thought

550

:

I was joking, but she did not know that.

551

:

A year before I proposed to her,

I was actually engaging into a

552

:

relation, into a relationship with

building her mom and speaking to

553

:

her mother every other day because I

understood culturally where she was at.

554

:

Right.

555

:

And where she was and what she

was, what she had to do, meaning

556

:

she had to possibly be with me.

557

:

And if it being with me, that meant

she had to walk away from her whole

558

:

family is what she thought at the time.

559

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

560

:

Shawn Norville: Um, so,

so it's on both sides.

561

:

It was, we were well

aware of those factors.

562

:

Um, you know, so I want to cut it short

there, but I'll give Brian a chance as

563

:

Tony Tidbit: Thanks Shawn.

564

:

Brian.

565

:

Brian Stern: Sure.

566

:

I think, yeah, thank you.

567

:

Um, I think my experience is a little bit

different clearly because I am the white

568

:

guy, um, and with a, uh, a Filipino woman.

569

:

I think, you know, coming from her

culture, you just don't talk about race.

570

:

It's just something like she just

didn't want to talk about it.

571

:

And I think coming from the

outside, coming from a very

572

:

sheltered, Non diverse background.

573

:

I became very hypersensitive to

every little thing that I thought

574

:

was some sort of racial slight,

whether it was in a restaurant, not

575

:

getting served or seated properly,

576

:

or it was, um,

577

:

you know, in a store not being helped or

having my wife being watched because she

578

:

came in and speaking a different language

on the phone to her sister or something.

579

:

Um, and I assumed everything was racial

and I wanted to be the guy who stood

580

:

up for her, that the hero would come

in and, you know, defend her honor.

581

:

Um, and so I became like, I

know this is cliche, but like

582

:

the angry white guy, right?

583

:

Like I became the guy who was like,

everything was racial and I wanted to talk

584

:

about it and I wanted to fight everybody.

585

:

I wanted to fight the world

and get angry about it.

586

:

But my wife just didn't

want to talk about it.

587

:

It just wasn't a big deal to her.

588

:

So it actually festered with me because

I didn't have an outlet to talk about

589

:

it because, you know, it's not something

that, that she was ready to talk.

590

:

Um, but it's something that I've

had to, um, develop a callous.

591

:

You know, over time, when you see these

little things, it actually takes more

592

:

energy to, to, to deal with this nonsense

than it does to resolve the issue.

593

:

And a lot of times it's, I've

learned that sometimes you just

594

:

have to let things go, which still

kind of eats at me a little bit,

595

:

particularly when it comes to my child.

596

:

Because what kind of

example am I setting, right?

597

:

That's where it becomes a real issue.

598

:

When we see these little things happen

and my wife doesn't want to talk about

599

:

it, she doesn't want me to address

it, but my daughter is right there.

600

:

How could I let it go?

601

:

Right.

602

:

Right.

603

:

Tony Tidbit: Let me ask you this, though,

Brian, um, because you said something,

604

:

and, and, well, let me say this first.

605

:

Um, what I'm hearing is, and let's

just, I'm, I'm gonna play back

606

:

everything that you guys said, right?

607

:

Hey, I got in this relationship

excluding excluding Brian.

608

:

He said I'm a little bit different,

but let me just show on in Robert

609

:

I got in this relationship.

610

:

I fell in love with this person

But immediately I had a monkey

611

:

on my back because I had to start

thinking about all these other things

612

:

How the black woman is gonna do?

613

:

I'm how she how they gonna look at me

and treat me how the how My family or

614

:

her family may deal with certain things.

615

:

So that's an extra weight You Immediately

that you are automatically start carrying

616

:

just to have a relationship, okay?

617

:

So I want to get back to that, but I

want to go to where Brian said because

618

:

Brian you said listen You know, I

didn't you know, as soon as we came

619

:

together I started seeing you know

I became the angry white dude where

620

:

I everything became ratio and every

little slight Wasn't because of this

621

:

wasn't because of that blah blah blah.

622

:

Let me ask you this before You

You started dating your wife.

623

:

Did you see those slights before?

624

:

Brian Stern: I think I did,

625

:

but I just wasn't as sensitive to it.

626

:

And I think that's a gift actually

that I've been given is that

627

:

actually now I am sensitive to it.

628

:

Um, so on one hand, I'm, I'm very

grateful that I have a much greater

629

:

appreciation for how the world is.

630

:

Um, but it's also one of those things

where it's, you know, it's upsetting to

631

:

know how the world is on that level too.

632

:

Um, and then the worst part about

it is not knowing what to do and

633

:

how to behave in those situations.

634

:

Tony Tidbit: So let's go.

635

:

So number one, thanks for sharing that.

636

:

So Shawn, Robert, did you, so this, let's

just go back to what you guys were saying.

637

:

Hey, look, you know, all of a

sudden I had to worry about.

638

:

You know, what black people or black

women specifically would say or look at

639

:

me, um, because I'm with my spouse, okay?

640

:

And then you had specifically,

Robert, where, you know,

641

:

ditched the snowflake, alright?

642

:

So, how did you get over,

did you get over that?

643

:

Okay?

644

:

What did it take for you to overcome that?

645

:

Uh, in terms of you feeling

confident that you're with who

646

:

God put in your life to be with.

647

:

Talk to us a little bit about that.

648

:

Robert Townes: So I say number one, um,

part of the way that, that I dealt with

649

:

it before and still deal with it today

is that we'd navigate that kind of space

650

:

in the world all the time, including now.

651

:

So, um, the fact that I've been with

my wife for about 25 years, we've

652

:

been married for almost 20 now,

um, it's still a daily occurrence.

653

:

I'd never know when I walk into a space.

654

:

How things are going to be accepted.

655

:

And I say that not just dealing with

going into a black community and how black

656

:

women or black people treat us, but in

certain, especially in areas where I'm

657

:

not as familiar, don't know how white

people or others will treat as well.

658

:

So it's still a top of mind

thing for me all along.

659

:

Um, the one thing I would say

about it though, is as far as the

660

:

confidence is concerned, et cetera.

661

:

Is that.

662

:

I just become more comfortable in

my own skin and don't care about

663

:

what other people think as much

anymore when I was in my 20s.

664

:

You know, you still are trying to show out

and show up and be around other people,

665

:

but now I, you know, I'm just living my

life and, and reality is what would get

666

:

me, get my back up a little bit more about

this is now seeing the slights and, and

667

:

dealing with things with my children,

668

:

you

669

:

know, now I'm living for them

and trying to help them get into

670

:

a space where they can go out in

the world and be the confident

671

:

people they need to be, et cetera.

672

:

And I'm trying to help

them navigate things.

673

:

And so, you know, as far as me and

my wife is concerned, we're good.

674

:

But.

675

:

Don't mess with our kids.

676

:

Tony Tidbit: I love it.

677

:

Shawn, anything you want

to add to that, my man?

678

:

Shawn Norville: Um, first and foremost,

I want to say, uh, Brian, thanks for

679

:

your perspective and your transparency

in, um, realization in terms of

680

:

the difficulties and complexities

that you've been dealing with.

681

:

And I think, I think your voice.

682

:

Is a voice is not heard a lot, uh,

but your perspective would be valued.

683

:

Um, so I just wanted to thank you for

sharing that, uh, with us, because I

684

:

think that I think I appreciate that.

685

:

That's really, really, um, impactful.

686

:

So don't, don't, don't think that

that's going to be glaze over,

687

:

uh, for anyone watching this.

688

:

For me, um, I knew I was ready.

689

:

Uh, because my wife is my day

one, she's my ride or die.

690

:

Um, I'm a kid from Brooklyn, New York.

691

:

Right.

692

:

And we have to keep our

head on a swivel, right?

693

:

I grew up in a time where there was

bloods, crips, gangs, land Kings.

694

:

Um, and I live, you know,

my family was middle class.

695

:

So we had what was considered a little

bit of money, which we all know it was not

696

:

real money in the grand scheme of things.

697

:

But, you know, I had nice shoes, I

had Jordans and things like that.

698

:

So I, I was always confident in myself

as a person, like, you know, like for

699

:

me, I've always been a confident person.

700

:

But the one thing that I held.

701

:

Uh, on my back was I always, always

wanted to make my parents proud.

702

:

Always want to make my community proud.

703

:

I was gonna make my people proud.

704

:

I've always been that kind of person.

705

:

Um, and then you fall in love with

your best friend and your best

706

:

friends from a different culture.

707

:

Um, but they share the same values.

708

:

And then when you fall in love with

that person, you know, what made me

709

:

knew I was ready to go forward and

doesn't matter what anybody cares

710

:

when she came to me and said, I

need to know what we're doing here.

711

:

Are we committed to this situation?

712

:

Because if we can commit a situation,

I'm going to let everybody know in

713

:

my world that I'm doing this and

they're either here with me or they're

714

:

not whoever's here with me or not.

715

:

So the fact that.

716

:

She wrote a letter, showed it to me, said,

I'm going to send this to my parents, um,

717

:

cause I need to communicate this cause we

are really serious about our relationship.

718

:

We're going to take

this next step forward.

719

:

That right there is everything.

720

:

That's when I knew it was me and

her against the world, even to this

721

:

day, and we go through phases and

chapters of your life where, um,

722

:

you put on the armor or you grow the

callus and it doesn't bother you.

723

:

It doesn't matter.

724

:

But then to Robert's point, Brian's point,

when your kids come into this world,

725

:

it's your heart outside of your body.

726

:

Hey, you know how to handle it, and

you know how to deal with it, but

727

:

when the slights come their way You

get all berserk and you're all, it's

728

:

like, uh, like the wound is reopened.

729

:

So now you know how to manage that.

730

:

And what, and I love my wife even more

these days because now she's now seeing

731

:

it from a different eye, from a different

lens, sort of similar to Brian, right?

732

:

Whereas now it's like, you know what,

we may not have, uh, A black affinity

733

:

group in our school or whatever the case

may be is, but I'm going to build one.

734

:

Right.

735

:

Even though I'm not because I know

my kids need that support system.

736

:

Tony Tidbit: Yeah.

737

:

Shawn Norville: And you know,

it's these kinds of things that

738

:

revalidates and reaffirms that

that's the person that you rock with.

739

:

That's the person that you ride with.

740

:

That's the person that you

married and you knew from day

741

:

one, you made the right choice.

742

:

It wasn't about the culture.

743

:

It wasn't about the skin.

744

:

It wasn't about the hair.

745

:

It wasn't about any of the physical parts.

746

:

It was all that feeling,

that heart that you.

747

:

Organically felt in the beginning,

um, and that's what makes it easy

748

:

for probably Brian and Robert and

myself and to move forward, um, no

749

:

matter what the difficulties are.

750

:

Tony Tidbit: Thanks, man.

751

:

I really appreciate that.

752

:

You know, I'm going to jump in this real

quick and tell a quick story because.

753

:

One of the things with me, my

wife is white and my wife is from

754

:

a small town outside of Boston.

755

:

She grew up like Brian, not

a lot of diversity at all.

756

:

And the things that we used to

go to go through when we started

757

:

dating, she never saw that before.

758

:

She never experienced that.

759

:

Matter of fact, if she, when

she was dating her boyfriend

760

:

prior to me was a white guy.

761

:

They didn't go through the things

that her and I went through.

762

:

When we go to restaurants or

stuff to that nature, right?

763

:

And then when we had kids and, and

so, but it took her a while to see

764

:

it because prior to our relationship,

these things didn't affect her.

765

:

All right?

766

:

And sometimes I thought like, wow,

she's with me and now she's got to deal

767

:

with stuff that had she dated somebody

else, she would have never dealt with,

768

:

at least from a racial standpoint.

769

:

Does that make sense, my brothers?

770

:

Right.

771

:

And so that's why it's important that

sometimes people, you know, when you

772

:

come from a certain background and then

all of you, you may not see certain

773

:

things, but then all of a sudden you get

a mate that's from a totally different

774

:

background and it exposes you to

things that you've never seen before.

775

:

So, those are the things that's

very important to understand.

776

:

But I want to go to your kids because,

you know, one of the things is,

777

:

like, you know, Robert, your son

was on the episode, too, too black

778

:

to be white, too white to be black.

779

:

And he shared his experience.

780

:

So I want to hear about some of the

things that your kids go through.

781

:

But first, the first question I want

to ask you before you had kids, did you

782

:

and your wife sit down and talk about

what was going to come by having kids?

783

:

Robert Townes: Yes, this is Robert.

784

:

So yes, we did.

785

:

But I think to your point that until

it became a reality, the conversation

786

:

didn't land in the same way.

787

:

Um, you know, because it's very important

to know that You know, when we have

788

:

children, people may consider, people

will consider the children black in

789

:

my, in my situation, um, that, um,

various things may happen to them

790

:

because of the color of their skin.

791

:

But the real issue is it's an abstract

thing until you actually see it, until

792

:

it actually happens, until your child

actually comes home and verbalizes things.

793

:

So even hearing the earlier

podcast episode and hearing

794

:

from our son about things.

795

:

provokes a conversation because

we're not always talking about it,

796

:

but it's something that's there.

797

:

And now our children are able to

elaborate on situations that they

798

:

encounter and it makes it real.

799

:

Tony Tidbit: Brian, what about you, buddy?

800

:

Brian Stern: So prior to my daughter

being born, we talked a lot about the fact

801

:

that my wife's third language is English.

802

:

So do we want my child

to speak other languages?

803

:

Absolutely.

804

:

We talked about religion.

805

:

We came from different

religious backgrounds.

806

:

We talked about.

807

:

You know, cultural differences and

things, but we never talked about it

808

:

from the, the point of ethnicity, but

to Robert's point, it hits pretty hard

809

:

when you're faced with it in reality,

years later, a perfect example is COVID.

810

:

You know, being like, we're again in a

pretty homogenous community and being

811

:

one of the very few Asian kids in the

school during COVID, you can imagine

812

:

some of the comments that were flying

at my child, you know, go back to China.

813

:

You know, a lot of that, and you

know, you just, things you would

814

:

never conceive of that your kid would

have to go through and you don't even

815

:

realize it until after it's happened.

816

:

Right.

817

:

So how do you prepare your

kid for something like that?

818

:

So.

819

:

You know, we, we deal with it

as it comes and we try to deal

820

:

with it as best as we can.

821

:

But a lot of times it's such a surprise

to us that it happens just because in

822

:

our minds, like our relationship has been

well accepted since it's been for 15, 16

823

:

years, but our kids just now developing

her identity, developing her relationship.

824

:

So she's experiencing a whole new set

of challenges that, that we may never

825

:

have faced during our relationship.

826

:

So it's taking it as it comes.

827

:

Tony Tidbit: What about you, Shawn?

828

:

Thanks, Brian.

829

:

Shawn Norville: Uh, for me, I, uh, we had,

we had conversations culturally, uh, from

830

:

a religious standpoint, but for, for us,

we had a lot of similarities in terms of

831

:

the way we wanted our kids to be raised.

832

:

We knew we wanted to, them to

celebrate both sides of their

833

:

culture and their backgrounds.

834

:

Um, there wasn't a question about that.

835

:

We knew they were going to, you know.

836

:

You know, where, um, Indian garb

closed and then they were going to,

837

:

um, hear reggae and calypso from my

culture and, um, things of that nature.

838

:

So we knew that we had a

very, um, aligned approach.

839

:

What we did not, um, I think anticipate

was how early we would need to have

840

:

been prepared for the dialogue of them

being, um, sort of put into a box.

841

:

Um, earlier on, uh, and facing certain

things that they may not be able to ingest

842

:

and understand why people say certain

things or why people want to touch their

843

:

hair and that's why their hair is so

curly or why my daughter wears braids,

844

:

um, you know, versus, you know, It being

out and them coming to us and asking us

845

:

questions of, Oh, I want my hair to be

yellow and, and down like my friends.

846

:

Or, um, you know, why do my friends ask me

how brown my skin is and does it rub off?

847

:

And when you get approached with those

things in real life and real time,

848

:

and you're not able to react, it, it.

849

:

It's a bit shocking, right?

850

:

When I catch you off guard, you

know, you have to deal with it.

851

:

But to Robert's point, uh, it's

like a, it's a theory in your head.

852

:

You're just like, yeah,

we're going to deal with it.

853

:

We're going to approach it.

854

:

There's tons of things to

read and stuff like that.

855

:

And we'll go get, we'll

understand it very progressively.

856

:

And then it hits you in the face,

like a Mike Tyson punch in the nose.

857

:

And then you're just

like, Whoa, wait a second.

858

:

Tony Tidbit: So, so, so

back up for a second.

859

:

You said, so, and I want you all to speak

to this because I, you know, one of the

860

:

things that we dealt with with our kids is

that, you know, Uh, some people, you know,

861

:

would make fun of them and call them.

862

:

You know, different names

because they were mixed.

863

:

They were biracial.

864

:

So when you said, um, they're trying to

put them in a box, like what do you mean?

865

:

Specifically,

866

:

Shawn Norville: meaning we've

always taught our kids that

867

:

they're two sides of them.

868

:

They're fit.

869

:

They're half and half, but when they

go out into the world, the world only

870

:

sees them as one thing, that part.

871

:

Right.

872

:

Right.

873

:

Tony Tidbit: And then, so

how do you deal with that?

874

:

So when they, when, you know,

because when the kids go out, Right.

875

:

You only can protect them for so

you only can do a little bit, right?

876

:

Once they walk out in the world,

the world will then deal with them.

877

:

All right.

878

:

So, so how do you deal with

that with your children?

879

:

And I would like all you guys

to jump in this on this as well.

880

:

And how does it make you feel?

881

:

Shawn Norville: I mean, you know me, Tony.

882

:

I'm a strategy guy.

883

:

I come up with a plan, right?

884

:

So not only am I going to instill

that in the home, uh, by repetitively

885

:

making sure my kids know who they are.

886

:

We celebrate, you know,

cultural days and holidays.

887

:

We make sure they

understand their heritage.

888

:

We make sure they, they, um, Understand

where they're from and music and food

889

:

and traditions, but we also make sure we

share that with the teachers at school.

890

:

And we also make sure that we invite

their friends to the celebrations that

891

:

are culturally relevant and teach them

certain ways to let them know that this

892

:

is part of their their friends culture.

893

:

So now.

894

:

Maybe not the parents so much, but we,

their friends will now know their friends

895

:

will now understand why when my kid shows

up with, um, you know, Indian clothes,

896

:

uh, because, because he's celebrating

holy or a different festival or different

897

:

holiday, uh, that's part of his culture.

898

:

So, it's things like that.

899

:

We make sure we instill in them, but

also we invite and pull people in,

900

:

um, as well as the community that

they are in on a regular basis to

901

:

make sure that everyone is aware.

902

:

So I usually am tired of educating

of the people, but it's actually my

903

:

job to make sure that my kids are

in a safe environment and that I'm

904

:

educating and letting people know

about who they are, um, as people.

905

:

Brian Stern: I

906

:

think for, for my daughter, what we've

done is just make sure that she gets

907

:

exposure to not just her own heritage,

but because she appreciates the fact

908

:

that she has a mixed heritage, we've

just tried to develop that appreciation

909

:

for other children of other heritage.

910

:

So there are not a lot of kids.

911

:

In our school district that are Filipino

heritage, but there are kids that are

912

:

Southeast Indian, or there are kids

that are, um, from the Caribbean, or

913

:

there are kids from South America.

914

:

So those are the kids that she's

tended to gravitate towards

915

:

and become friendly with.

916

:

Because we've taught her this just

to appreciate, look, she's different.

917

:

If people are going to view her

as different, how do you think

918

:

all these other children feel that

may be exposed to the same things?

919

:

So she's gravitated towards that, those

social groups and those social structures.

920

:

Um, and we've looked for opportunities to

get her more involved in things like that.

921

:

Originally we had her on a swim team

where she was the only non Hispanic

922

:

kid, because we wanted to give her a

different, you know, set of exposure.

923

:

Then if she had joined the team here,

where it would have been all white kids.

924

:

So for us, it's just about expanding

our horizons, make sure that she's

925

:

very worldly and has just a greater

appreciation for other people's cultures

926

:

and not worry so much whether or not

other people have appreciation for hers.

927

:

Tony Tidbit: Robert.

928

:

Robert Townes: So one of the things

that, uh, my children are blessed with

929

:

is that, uh, we, we joke about it, but

especially my wife's side of the family,

930

:

they joke and say that we have like

a United Nations kind of feel there,

931

:

because we not only have the racial Um,

you know, uh, diversity in the family,

932

:

but we also have religious diversity.

933

:

Um, you know, so we have,

uh, Jewish in our family, so

934

:

celebrate some Jewish holidays.

935

:

Um, you know, there, there is a sexual

orientation change in difference.

936

:

So we, we, we celebrate everybody.

937

:

So that's, that's one thing.

938

:

But one of the things for me, particularly

as it relates to black and white,

939

:

is I really work with my children on

educating them about their history first.

940

:

Because those who don't learn from

their history are doomed to repeat it.

941

:

And then also want to instill a confidence

in them that they can carry themselves

942

:

in this world with their head held high.

943

:

That they have nothing to be ashamed

about, they have nothing to answer

944

:

to, they are their own people.

945

:

Um, and so that they have the tools and a

toolkit to deal with a lot of situations.

946

:

As a parent, my job is to kind

of help them be ready to go out

947

:

into the world when I'm no longer

standing around them or near them.

948

:

Tony Tidbit: Right.

949

:

Robert Townes: And so I'm trying

to work with them to get them to

950

:

fill up that toolkit with all the

tools they need to be able to handle

951

:

a lot of different situations.

952

:

So some of it is that street awareness

and you understand where you are

953

:

and the context of your being in

the relation to everybody else.

954

:

Um, trying to get them to understand

in their lives, um, how to connect with

955

:

people, you know, because sometimes

you can disarm people, but you connect

956

:

on a one on one basis with them.

957

:

Like, just try, like I said, trying

to give them many different things in

958

:

their toolkit To be able to go about

dealing with the world because I know

959

:

at a certain point in their lives,

they're going to be on their own,

960

:

whether they're away at college or

beyond, and they're going to have to

961

:

deal with the world on its terms, but

they have to be able to bring themselves

962

:

to that point and, and, and thrive.

963

:

And that's what I'm

trying to get them to do.

964

:

Tony Tidbit: What are some of the,

so, so when it comes to your family,

965

:

it comes to your, your marriage.

966

:

What is some of the things that you

guys, you know, you talked about your

967

:

kids and specifically you, and you

all said it, people try to put them

968

:

in a box, they only can be one part of

their ethnicity versus the entire part.

969

:

What's some of the outrageous things

that you guys deal with when it comes

970

:

to interracial marriage and family?

971

:

Speaker 6: So for me, I say,

especially, you know, especially in

972

:

this day and age, it's my daughter.

973

:

And you know, I know hearing the other

episode of the podcast, your daughter's

974

:

kind of deal with the same thing.

975

:

It's, it's the, it's the

dealing with the hair.

976

:

People wanting to touch the hair, wanting

to do a lot of things, trying to get

977

:

my daughter, particularly, you know,

trying to work with her to deal with the

978

:

world, because I am not a black woman.

979

:

Um, and I don't have that

intersectionality where I can understand

980

:

what the world is like for a black woman.

981

:

And I'm very blessed and very thankful

that my mom and my sister and others

982

:

in my family stepped forward to help

my daughter when those issues come up

983

:

where there are things that she needs

to deal with outside of things that I

984

:

can give her and that she has resources

there to be able to help her, you know,

985

:

because It is strange for somebody in my

mind because nobody ever does it to me.

986

:

They just walk up and

stop touching my hair.

987

:

If somebody comes up and

starts touching my hair or like

988

:

they're, Oh, it's time to fight.

989

:

What are we doing?

990

:

Touching me like that.

991

:

Right.

992

:

But women are supposed to take

that and it's supposed to be fine.

993

:

Right.

994

:

It's not

995

:

Brian Stern: for me.

996

:

That's a difficult question.

997

:

Okay.

998

:

Shawn Norville: Yeah.

999

:

No, go ahead, Brian.

:

00:49:02,375 --> 00:49:03,425

Tony Tidbit: You said

it's a difficult question.

:

00:49:03,425 --> 00:49:03,575

Go ahead.

:

00:49:04,575 --> 00:49:06,915

Brian Stern: I do think it's a

difficult question because I, it's

:

00:49:06,915 --> 00:49:11,335

hard for me to categorize things

as, as outrageous after 16 years.

:

00:49:11,394 --> 00:49:16,335

Um, but, uh, I, I, I think One of the

things that, that has always shocked me

:

00:49:16,335 --> 00:49:21,635

a little bit is just the expectation that

our relationship must be more challenging

:

00:49:21,635 --> 00:49:23,205

than anyone else's relationship.

:

00:49:24,415 --> 00:49:25,335

And I don't think it is.

:

00:49:25,545 --> 00:49:25,895

Right.

:

00:49:26,325 --> 00:49:28,965

You know, we deal with the same things

that any couple would deal with.

:

00:49:28,965 --> 00:49:32,335

We fight over the same stupid

things that people fight over.

:

00:49:32,345 --> 00:49:35,435

We agree on, you know, the same

goofy things that people agree on.

:

00:49:35,755 --> 00:49:38,725

We deal with, you know, a lot of

the similar things with children.

:

00:49:38,745 --> 00:49:44,980

And I just don't think that it's as, you

know, extreme as a lot of people think.

:

00:49:45,060 --> 00:49:48,680

And I think this, that expectation, like

I know, you know, my parents are very

:

00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,960

open, they were very accepting of my

wife when we were dating, but I think

:

00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,239

they thought that there was going to

be more tension in our relationship.

:

00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,909

And I think that a lot of people, a

lot of my friends thought there would

:

00:49:58,930 --> 00:50:01,519

be more tension in the relationship

because of the ethnic difference.

:

00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,280

And I just don't think it

lives up to their expectations.

:

00:50:06,540 --> 00:50:10,780

It really hasn't been, you know,

that challenging for us, one to

:

00:50:10,780 --> 00:50:12,300

one relating because of race.

:

00:50:12,330 --> 00:50:12,960

It really hasn't been.

:

00:50:13,270 --> 00:50:13,630

Tony Tidbit: Right.

:

00:50:14,930 --> 00:50:15,280

Shawn

:

00:50:16,510 --> 00:50:20,019

Shawn Norville: Uh, for, for, from

a marriage standpoint, it's, um, I

:

00:50:20,019 --> 00:50:24,260

want to say, I don't know if it's

died down or more just I'm now,

:

00:50:24,585 --> 00:50:26,065

unaware of it or don't care anymore.

:

00:50:26,065 --> 00:50:29,435

And so I'm, I'm less sensitive to

it or less cognizant of it where,

:

00:50:29,785 --> 00:50:33,635

you know, you would be stared at for

long periods of time on a train ride

:

00:50:33,645 --> 00:50:35,595

from like the time you get on the

train till you get off the train.

:

00:50:35,755 --> 00:50:39,424

Um, you know, just don't know what

it is, but it's just outraged.

:

00:50:39,425 --> 00:50:41,355

Like you're going to stare

at me for 20 minutes.

:

00:50:41,365 --> 00:50:44,535

That's very weird and awkward.

:

00:50:44,535 --> 00:50:44,790

Right.

:

00:50:44,790 --> 00:50:47,425

So, you know, those are some of the

things that happened earlier on.

:

00:50:47,455 --> 00:50:51,174

But as we got older, um, I guess life

changes, you put yourself in certain

:

00:50:52,590 --> 00:50:55,380

You are, um, more comfortable, I guess.

:

00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:57,580

Um, so things like that

don't happen as much.

:

00:50:57,610 --> 00:51:01,590

But, um, from a kid's perspective,

I'm dealing with a family perspective.

:

00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,799

Um, just the things that kids are saying,

because they're curious sometimes,

:

00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,579

and they're not being exposed to

different people or different cultures.

:

00:51:10,940 --> 00:51:13,240

So they have these questions, which

are obviously really innocent,

:

00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:17,270

but they come from a place of

just lack of exposure and, um.

:

00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,030

I wouldn't say they're outrageous.

:

00:51:19,060 --> 00:51:24,110

They're just naive, you know, and, uh,

but what I do sense is that my kids

:

00:51:24,110 --> 00:51:25,460

don't ask the same questions back.

:

00:51:25,780 --> 00:51:29,640

Um, and that's the point that I don't,

I'm still trying to figure out in

:

00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:30,739

real time, to be honest with you.

:

00:51:31,030 --> 00:51:31,470

Tony Tidbit: Right.

:

00:51:32,020 --> 00:51:32,590

So I got to

:

00:51:32,590 --> 00:51:32,790

say,

:

00:51:32,819 --> 00:51:35,210

Robert Townes: Tony, Tony,

let me jump in on that.

:

00:51:35,459 --> 00:51:35,990

Tony Tidbit: Go ahead, Robert.

:

00:51:36,030 --> 00:51:39,260

Robert Townes: So one of the things

is also a basis of comparison.

:

00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,220

Like what we go through in our

lives with our marriages and with

:

00:51:42,220 --> 00:51:43,840

our children is kind of our normal.

:

00:51:44,265 --> 00:51:48,505

So, the word outrageous is a little bit

different because it's just normal for us.

:

00:51:48,695 --> 00:51:49,145

Correct.

:

00:51:49,145 --> 00:51:52,705

The issue is when you have a basis of

comparison to somebody else's experience

:

00:51:52,735 --> 00:51:53,835

and then you can see something different.

:

00:51:54,194 --> 00:51:57,905

So, for instance, you know, if I were

to find out, for instance, that my

:

00:51:57,905 --> 00:52:00,805

wife and I are trying to buy a house

in a certain neighborhood, and if

:

00:52:00,845 --> 00:52:04,835

I'm the person who is the lead on the

conversation, I get, you know, mortgage

:

00:52:04,894 --> 00:52:07,065

rate at a certain level, exactly.

:

00:52:07,195 --> 00:52:10,025

She does it separately, or

she takes pictures of me out

:

00:52:10,025 --> 00:52:11,915

of the, the, the, the house.

:

00:52:12,304 --> 00:52:14,595

Then all of a sudden it's a totally

different conversation about

:

00:52:14,735 --> 00:52:18,314

how tired exactly those kinds of

things would be really outrageous.

:

00:52:18,314 --> 00:52:19,454

That hasn't happened to us.

:

00:52:19,850 --> 00:52:22,510

In particular, what I'm saying, if

we had that basis of comparison,

:

00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:26,060

then we could realize how out of

whack things may actually be for us.

:

00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:27,020

And we're just not aware.

:

00:52:27,390 --> 00:52:30,600

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, so and that's where

I was going to because yeah, I mean at

:

00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,749

the end of the day when I say I'm talking

about this stuff That's yes, we deal

:

00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:39,970

with but yeah other other people don't

so I can give you a million exam Because

:

00:52:39,980 --> 00:52:44,020

I was just about to say maybe me and my

family are the only ones right because

:

00:52:44,260 --> 00:52:48,760

my daughter's told my wife one time You

know every time daddy goes to the store.

:

00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,300

They were like four and five.

:

00:52:50,530 --> 00:52:52,500

Uh, they, he gets followed.

:

00:52:52,730 --> 00:52:53,380

Okay.

:

00:52:53,420 --> 00:52:56,400

And I didn't even know

my daughters said this.

:

00:52:56,620 --> 00:52:56,960

All right.

:

00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,380

At four and five, they always

follow him in the store.

:

00:52:59,650 --> 00:53:00,200

Okay.

:

00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:06,439

So I can give you a million examples

of stuff that we dealt with, right?

:

00:53:06,450 --> 00:53:07,929

That, yeah, we have calluses.

:

00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:13,195

My wife, she's When we were on vacation

and girls were one and two or two and

:

00:53:13,195 --> 00:53:16,945

three and, and white women would come

up to her and say, are they your kids?

:

00:53:17,075 --> 00:53:17,955

Are they yours?

:

00:53:17,984 --> 00:53:20,975

You know, and be very sarcastic and nasty.

:

00:53:21,345 --> 00:53:21,825

Okay.

:

00:53:21,865 --> 00:53:25,765

So I'm just telling you, maybe

because we, I, and again, like

:

00:53:25,765 --> 00:53:26,964

I said, we build up calluses.

:

00:53:26,964 --> 00:53:29,055

My wife had to build up calluses.

:

00:53:29,245 --> 00:53:34,705

My wife now sees things that she never

saw before, especially since we had kids.

:

00:53:34,835 --> 00:53:35,355

Okay.

:

00:53:35,355 --> 00:53:36,715

That people say.

:

00:53:37,035 --> 00:53:41,645

Or they say, they say slight, so they

do microaggressions that she wouldn't

:

00:53:41,645 --> 00:53:45,225

even know what a microaggression

was before until we had kids, right?

:

00:53:45,425 --> 00:53:48,365

So that's what I mean about outrageous.

:

00:53:48,465 --> 00:53:53,855

Some of the things that people do or say,

um, that you wouldn't get in a typical,

:

00:53:54,044 --> 00:53:57,334

regular, uh, equal racial relationship.

:

00:53:57,954 --> 00:54:01,415

Robert Townes: And so when I say like

putting, building a toolkit for the kids.

:

00:54:01,830 --> 00:54:05,150

Because now that's, like I said, that's,

that's my life, they're my world,

:

00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:08,690

and trying to get them to be ready

to deal with those microaggressions.

:

00:54:09,350 --> 00:54:13,509

Get them to be able to deal with,

you know, not overt aggression,

:

00:54:14,130 --> 00:54:17,029

and how that might happen, and

from different people as well.

:

00:54:17,420 --> 00:54:20,530

You know, so, you know, I, I know we

always, a lot of times we talk about

:

00:54:20,530 --> 00:54:23,940

race, you start talking about, um,

dealing with police and other, other,

:

00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:27,950

you know, uh, other sources of authority,

but how to deal with those situations.

:

00:54:28,535 --> 00:54:32,485

Like how the idea is to come back home,

you know, and not to say something

:

00:54:32,485 --> 00:54:35,785

or do something that is going to

aggravate, you know, so let's have

:

00:54:35,785 --> 00:54:39,314

some deescalation strategies if you

need to have those kind of things, you

:

00:54:39,314 --> 00:54:43,465

know, I want my Children to understand

the world a little bit differently.

:

00:54:43,535 --> 00:54:45,754

I tell my son all the time, for

instance, and he mentioned this on

:

00:54:45,754 --> 00:54:50,805

the podcast that I told him that

when he is with a group of a racially

:

00:54:50,805 --> 00:54:55,505

diverse group of people and something

goes down and it goes a little south.

:

00:54:55,940 --> 00:54:58,200

To remove himself from the

situation because when the police

:

00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,980

come, they come to him first,

:

00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,400

Tony Tidbit: right?

:

00:55:00,490 --> 00:55:04,580

Robert Townes: You know, as a six foot

biracial, you know, 16 year old, he is

:

00:55:04,610 --> 00:55:08,470

going to be the one they ask first or

attack or grab or do whatever first.

:

00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:12,040

So I'm trying to tell him to be smart,

to be aware of what's happening.

:

00:55:12,170 --> 00:55:15,160

And if things are going the wrong

way to remove yourself from those

:

00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,630

situations so that you are not

caught up in somebody else's mess,

:

00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:19,090

Speaker 4: right?

:

00:55:19,270 --> 00:55:21,150

Robert Townes: Uh, you know, so there

are a lot of things that are happening,

:

00:55:21,150 --> 00:55:25,850

but as I said, it is basically now,

I'm moving on to making sure that my

:

00:55:25,860 --> 00:55:30,040

kids have the tools to deal with those

microaggressions or overt aggressions

:

00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,380

or whatever because I want them to

be able to thrive in this world.

:

00:55:33,759 --> 00:55:34,150

Tony Tidbit: Got it.

:

00:55:35,069 --> 00:55:36,660

So guys, final thoughts.

:

00:55:36,779 --> 00:55:38,130

I want to get from you.

:

00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:39,360

What's your final thoughts?

:

00:55:39,410 --> 00:55:44,949

What do you want the audience to

know about interracial marriage?

:

00:55:44,980 --> 00:55:46,510

57 years.

:

00:55:46,835 --> 00:55:48,945

After Loving v.

:

00:55:48,945 --> 00:55:55,345

Virginia, Supreme Court, um,

makes interracial marriage legal.

:

00:55:55,605 --> 00:55:56,505

Brian, I'll start with you.

:

00:55:57,455 --> 00:55:59,525

Brian Stern: Well, I think the

first thing is to realize that

:

00:55:59,565 --> 00:56:01,875

57 years is just not a long time.

:

00:56:02,695 --> 00:56:03,455

It really isn't.

:

00:56:03,625 --> 00:56:09,045

And yes, we've come a long way, and I,

um, I worry, you know, just based on

:

00:56:09,045 --> 00:56:14,335

what we're seeing today politically and

otherwise that, uh, you know, 57 years is

:

00:56:14,335 --> 00:56:19,425

going to feel a lot closer than it even

is, um, so I'm very worried about that.

:

00:56:19,425 --> 00:56:21,555

And I think, you know,

people need to talk about it.

:

00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,840

People need to bring it up,

bring it to the forefront.

:

00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,320

Don't be afraid to have

conversations about it.

:

00:56:26,820 --> 00:56:31,120

Um, the other thing, my, my parting

thought is, my goodness, I have learned

:

00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,830

so much from Robert and Shawn today.

:

00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:36,099

I am just, I'm so thankful that

I got to be a part of this,

:

00:56:36,429 --> 00:56:37,620

just hearing your perspectives.

:

00:56:37,689 --> 00:56:39,410

I'm coming away so much wiser.

:

00:56:39,810 --> 00:56:42,210

So I, I, I'm just so

thankful I was part of this.

:

00:56:43,780 --> 00:56:44,560

Tony Tidbit: It's awesome, buddy.

:

00:56:44,690 --> 00:56:46,380

And, and let's be fair though, too.

:

00:56:46,955 --> 00:56:48,815

You brought a lot of wisdom as well.

:

00:56:49,805 --> 00:56:50,365

Okay.

:

00:56:50,365 --> 00:56:53,785

You, you definitely threw some nuggets

out there that we all can learn from.

:

00:56:54,085 --> 00:56:55,645

So I really appreciate that.

:

00:56:55,685 --> 00:56:56,075

Shawn.

:

00:56:57,354 --> 00:56:57,714

Shawn Norville: Yeah.

:

00:56:57,765 --> 00:56:59,274

Um, appreciate that, Brian.

:

00:56:59,275 --> 00:57:01,925

Like I said, I'm, I appreciated

your, your, your viewpoint.

:

00:57:01,925 --> 00:57:03,494

It's a viewpoint we don't hear too often.

:

00:57:03,804 --> 00:57:10,114

Um, we'd love to hear more of that, but

for me, ah, what do I want people to know?

:

00:57:10,154 --> 00:57:16,300

Uh, You know, the funny thing is,

um, relationships, family, um, kids,

:

00:57:16,550 --> 00:57:19,970

wives, like, it's all hard, like,

life is generally not the easiest

:

00:57:19,970 --> 00:57:27,180

thing ever, um, but, um, it's not

about being black, white, Asian, you

:

00:57:27,180 --> 00:57:31,420

know, uh, Latinx, whatever it is,

uh, it's about being a person first.

:

00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:35,960

Um, and I think for me, with all the

things that are happening in the past

:

00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,100

few years politically, and you know,

what's been happening to divide in the

:

00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:42,400

country, what we don't see statistically,

or what people keep forgetting is that

:

00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,959

the integration of culturals and races

are exponentially happening as well.

:

00:57:48,310 --> 00:57:53,019

Um, so there's going to be, the majority

is going to be the minority soon.

:

00:57:53,100 --> 00:57:57,400

Um, and I, I want to say that

I have a tremendous amount of

:

00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,030

faith in the children today.

:

00:57:59,460 --> 00:58:02,950

You know, uh, Robert's Children and

Brian's Children and Tony's Children

:

00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,190

because your children are older than mine.

:

00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,680

I have a tremendous amount of

faith in how they're moving

:

00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:07,650

and maneuvering in the world.

:

00:58:07,940 --> 00:58:09,659

I'm so hopeful, right?

:

00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:13,250

And I believe that they're going to do the

right things and make the right choices.

:

00:58:13,609 --> 00:58:16,839

I just don't want them to be impacted

by the things that we do today.

:

00:58:17,219 --> 00:58:20,009

Um, so what I want to leave here in

this conversation is that Robert's

:

00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,840

There is a lot of hope later, right?

:

00:58:22,940 --> 00:58:27,700

Let's just not mess it up for them

to not have a runway to take off.

:

00:58:28,030 --> 00:58:31,610

Um, you know, and we have to

understand that we are people first.

:

00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:35,180

We have to love one another, no matter

who, what ilk or creed you're from.

:

00:58:35,330 --> 00:58:36,429

And always start there.

:

00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:37,860

Tony Tidbit: Love it.

:

00:58:38,009 --> 00:58:38,429

I love

:

00:58:38,429 --> 00:58:38,959

it, my brother.

:

00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:39,990

Thank you, Robert.

:

00:58:40,099 --> 00:58:41,050

Close us out, buddy.

:

00:58:41,490 --> 00:58:41,880

Robert Townes: All right.

:

00:58:41,890 --> 00:58:44,940

So Tony, first of all, thank you

for the platform, Shawn and Brian.

:

00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:45,810

Thank you for sharing.

:

00:58:45,810 --> 00:58:48,230

I really, really do

appreciate the conversation.

:

00:58:48,580 --> 00:58:53,425

Um, So for me, my parting shot

is really around not taking for

:

00:58:53,425 --> 00:58:55,275

granted the progress that was made.

:

00:58:55,385 --> 00:59:00,234

Um, I know that especially in this

political and judicial climate, things

:

00:59:00,235 --> 00:59:05,745

are some in some cases rolling backwards

and we can't allow that to happen because

:

00:59:05,934 --> 00:59:10,124

our Children and our Children's Children

and everybody else moving forward, um,

:

00:59:10,134 --> 00:59:15,484

will be impacted if we allow progress to

roll backwards and we don't want that.

:

00:59:16,030 --> 00:59:19,860

As far as our families are concerned, our

families are loving units and as, as Shawn

:

00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:24,120

is saying, you know, we are certainly a

melting pot in this country and there's

:

00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,099

a lot of diversity and that's a strength

and we have to make sure that we uphold

:

00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:33,769

that strength for everybody, you know,

and make sure that, um, everybody, our

:

00:59:33,769 --> 00:59:38,550

children in particular have the tool kits

and tools ready so that they can go out

:

00:59:38,550 --> 00:59:42,720

and deal with the world and really make

sure that they have a choice and a voice

:

00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,300

in how we do things as we move forward.

:

00:59:44,865 --> 00:59:48,085

That they need their platforms to

be able to speak on these things, to

:

00:59:48,085 --> 00:59:52,015

talk to each other, to recognize our

differences, celebrate them, and to

:

00:59:52,025 --> 00:59:57,325

also not allow them to be caught up.

:

00:59:57,915 --> 01:00:02,550

in this political whirlwind that's

happening right now where things are

:

01:00:02,550 --> 01:00:06,050

looking backwards, you know, we need

them to continue to move forward.

:

01:00:07,060 --> 01:00:08,070

Tony Tidbit: Well, thank you, buddy.

:

01:00:08,079 --> 01:00:13,360

And I, I, I, um, really feel,

um, by you guys coming on and

:

01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:17,540

chatting about this, that it's

going to help people move forward.

:

01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:18,510

Here's the kicker.

:

01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:23,160

Um, and y'all kind of said it too,

that yes, it's only been 57 years

:

01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:25,440

and Brian, you're 100 percent

right, which is not a long time.

:

01:00:25,995 --> 01:00:34,245

However, in:

percent of the country, um,

:

01:00:34,685 --> 01:00:36,505

agreed with interracial marriage.

:

01:00:37,555 --> 01:00:45,745

In:

with interracial marriage.

:

01:00:46,074 --> 01:00:51,640

So, Just to be fair, going back to what

you guys, we have made from a mindset

:

01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:56,700

standpoint in terms of people approving

interracial, I believe, and I, and

:

01:00:56,700 --> 01:01:01,169

Noelle can look this up, but I think

if I remember correctly, 20 percent of

:

01:01:01,190 --> 01:01:03,529

all new marriages are interracial now.

:

01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:04,620

Okay.

:

01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:09,140

So there, and back to your point,

Shawn, I think you said it, or maybe

:

01:01:09,140 --> 01:01:13,090

Robert said it that, you know, the

country is becoming way more diverse.

:

01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:17,850

It's going to be the minority will be

the majority who, if you believe whatever

:

01:01:17,900 --> 01:01:19,540

in 30 years, whatever the case may be.

:

01:01:19,850 --> 01:01:23,089

So, and back to what

everyone said, I do agree.

:

01:01:23,089 --> 01:01:27,340

I think the kids, um, we're

hopeful we have a bright future

:

01:01:27,340 --> 01:01:30,609

with our kids because they're

growing up in a more diverse world.

:

01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:33,830

They're more accepting, but I

think the other thing though, too.

:

01:01:34,235 --> 01:01:39,675

They're more empathetic, um, of

what other kids go through and they

:

01:01:39,675 --> 01:01:42,505

can see individuals versus groups.

:

01:01:42,884 --> 01:01:43,564

Okay.

:

01:01:43,815 --> 01:01:46,935

Which I think is a great

way where we're heading.

:

01:01:47,045 --> 01:01:51,055

So number one, Brian Stern,

Shawn Norville, Robert Towns.

:

01:01:51,515 --> 01:01:55,795

Thank you for coming on a Black Executive

Perspective Podcast and providing your

:

01:01:55,795 --> 01:01:58,825

perspective on this difficult topic.

:

01:01:59,365 --> 01:02:02,915

So now I think it's

time for Tony's Tidbit.

:

01:02:03,045 --> 01:02:04,554

So today's tidbit.

:

01:02:04,985 --> 01:02:11,285

It's by Maya Angelou, and it

states, love recognizes no barriers.

:

01:02:11,955 --> 01:02:18,915

It jumps hurdles, leap fences,

penetrate walls to arrive at

:

01:02:18,915 --> 01:02:21,904

his destination, full of hope.

:

01:02:22,875 --> 01:02:27,495

And you heard that today from

Brian, Shawn, and Robert about their

:

01:02:27,495 --> 01:02:33,220

relationships and how Solid they are

and how they're building their family,

:

01:02:33,230 --> 01:02:36,100

not just for today, but for the future.

:

01:02:36,490 --> 01:02:40,540

So more importantly, I want to thank

you for joining another episode of

:

01:02:40,540 --> 01:02:42,350

Black Executive Perspective Podcast.

:

01:02:42,649 --> 01:02:47,749

And I want everyone now to listen

and incorporate BEP'S called

:

01:02:47,790 --> 01:02:49,799

action, which is called L.E.S.S..

:

01:02:50,370 --> 01:02:52,350

L E S S.

:

01:02:52,490 --> 01:02:56,140

Our goal is to decrease

racism and all the isms.

:

01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,370

So we want everyone to

incorporate L.E.S.S..

:

01:02:59,619 --> 01:03:01,150

L stands for learn.

:

01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,250

We want you to learn about

other different cultures, other

:

01:03:05,250 --> 01:03:07,599

different individuals, history.

:

01:03:07,759 --> 01:03:12,320

Because by learning, you're going to

enlighten yourself and be more aware.

:

01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:14,230

Open to other individuals.

:

01:03:14,550 --> 01:03:16,240

E stands for Empathy.

:

01:03:16,510 --> 01:03:21,140

Once you've learned, now you should

be more empathetic to your fellow

:

01:03:21,140 --> 01:03:22,830

human being and what they deal with.

:

01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:24,800

S stands for Share.

:

01:03:25,020 --> 01:03:29,399

You should share what you learn

to your friends and family so they

:

01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:30,889

can become enlightened as well.

:

01:03:31,129 --> 01:03:33,820

And the other S for stands for Stop.

:

01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,850

It's all everybody's role

is to stop discrimination

:

01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:39,520

wherever it walks in your path.

:

01:03:39,770 --> 01:03:43,429

So if you're at the thanksgiving

table and grandpa says something

:

01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:45,590

inappropriate You say grandpa.

:

01:03:45,839 --> 01:03:47,009

We don't say that.

:

01:03:47,220 --> 01:03:50,090

Okay, so if everybody

incorporates L.E.S.S.

:

01:03:50,450 --> 01:03:56,435

L E S S will build a fairer A

more understanding world and

:

01:03:56,585 --> 01:04:00,625

everyone will be able to see

the change that you want to see.

:

01:04:01,355 --> 01:04:05,645

Follow a a Black Executive Perspective

podcast wherever you get your podcast.

:

01:04:05,705 --> 01:04:11,575

And you can follow our us on our socials

of LinkedIn, X, YouTube, uh, Instagram

:

01:04:11,845 --> 01:04:18,555

and Facebook @ablackexec for our

fabulous guests, Shawn Norville, Brian

:

01:04:18,555 --> 01:04:25,215

Stern, Robert Towns, and our fantastic

producer who made all this happen.

:

01:04:25,695 --> 01:04:26,510

Noelle Miller.

:

01:04:26,910 --> 01:04:28,100

I'm Tony Tidbit.

:

01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:29,550

We talked about it.

:

01:04:29,670 --> 01:04:30,510

We love you.

:

01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:31,480

And guess what?

:

01:04:31,830 --> 01:04:32,370

We're out.

:

01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,500

Speaker 4: A Black Executive Perspective.

Show artwork for TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective

About the Podcast

TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective
Reshaping Leadership & Diversity in Corporate America
About the Podcast: "TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective" offers a deep dive into the corporate world through the lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Hosted by Tony Franklin, aka Tony Tidbit, this podcast shines a light on vital conversations around race, leadership, and diversity, fostering understanding and change.

https://ablackexec.com

Meet Your Host: Tony Franklin has over three decades of corporate experience and provides transformative insights into diversity and inclusion, making each episode a journey of learning and empowerment.

Why You Should Listen:
- Diverse Perspectives: Insights from a variety of voices on challenges and triumphs in the corporate sphere.
-Action-Oriented: Practical advice for advocating equity and allyship in the workplace.
- Educational & Empathetic: A focus on empathy and education to drive impactful change.

What to Expect: #BEPpodcast brings powerful transformations, empowering voices, addressing barriers, and delving into topics reshaping Corporate America. It's a platform uniting diverse voices and making a significant impact.

Stay Connected:
Follow @ablackexec on social media for insights and visit ablackexec.com for updates and additional content.

Listen & Subscribe:
"TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective" is available on:
Apple Podcasts: https://ablackexec.com/apple
Spotify: https://ablackexec.com/spotify
YouTube Podcasts: https://ablackexec.com/youtube
Other Platforms: https://ablackexec.com/listen

Join us in transforming the narrative on race, leadership, and diversity in Corporate America. Your participation matters!

#BEPpodcast #TonyTidbit #CorporateDiversity #Inclusion #Leadership #RaceInCorporate #DiversityMatters #DEI

This podcast uses analytics and growth tools from Podder, Chartable, Podsights, and Podcorn.

About your host

Profile picture for Tony Franklin

Tony Franklin

Tony Franklin, the esteemed host of "TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective," is a dynamic and insightful leader with over 30 years of experience navigating the complexities of corporate America. With a career marked by leadership roles across various industries, Tony brings a wealth of knowledge and a unique perspective to the podcast. His journey is one of resilience, determination, and an unwavering commitment to driving diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the workplace.

A passionate advocate for change, Tony initiated the groundbreaking "Conversations about Race" series in his workplace following the social unrest of 2020. This series laid the foundation for the podcast, offering a platform for open, honest discussions about race and the Black executive experience in corporate America. Through his engaging conversations with guests, Tony explores themes of adversity, exclusion, and implicit bias, while also highlighting the strategies that have helped break down racial barriers.

Tony's approachable style and depth of experience make him an influential voice in the DEI space. His dedication to fostering an inclusive environment is evident in each episode, where he provides actionable guidance for being a better advocate and ally. "TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective" is not just a podcast; it's a movement towards a more equitable corporate landscape, led by Tony's visionary leadership and empathetic voice.