57 Years after Loving v. Virginia: Fathers in Interracial Marriages Speak Out.

Brian Stern: 00:00:00

I think my experience is a little bit different, clearly,

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because I am the white guy, um,

and With a, uh, a Filipino woman.

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I think, you know, coming from her

culture, you just don't talk about race.

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It's just something like, she

just didn't want to talk about it.

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And I think coming from the outside,

coming from a very sheltered, non diverse

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background, I became very hypersensitive

to every little thing that I thought

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was some sort of racial slight.

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Whether it was in a restaurant,

not getting served or seated was,

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um,

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you know, in a store not being helped or

having my wife being watched because she

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came in and speaking a different language

on the phone to her sister or something.

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Tony Tidbit: We'll discuss race and

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how it plays a factor and how

we didn't even talk about this

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topic because we were afraid.

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BEP Narrator: A Black

Executive Perspective.

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Tony Tidbit: Welcome to a Black Executive

Perspective podcast, a safe space where

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we discuss all matters related to race,

Especially race in corporate America.

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Bra I'm your host, Tony Tidbit.

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And again, today we're at the

University of New Haven in

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sunny New Haven, Connecticut.

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We want to thank the University of New

Haven for partnering with the Black

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Executive Perspective Podcast, allowing

us to use their fabulous podcast studio.

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Go Chargers.

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Also, please check out our

partners, Code M Magazine, whose

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mission is to save the black family

by first saving the black man.

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Check them out at Code M Magazine.

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History Channel Narrator:

th,: 1958

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m., a county sheriff entered the

home of Virginia couple Richard and

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Mildred Loving, forced them out of

their bed and placed them under arrest.

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Their crime, interracial marriage.

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They were tried and found guilty

of violating Virginia's Racial

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Integrity Act of 1924, a series of

laws that made race mixing illegal.

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On June 12th, 1967, the court unanimously

struck down the Virginia Marriage Ban

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and overturned the Lovings Conviction.

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The court ruling reverberated across

America, invalidating anti miscegenation

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laws not only in Virginia, but in 16

other states that held them as well.

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After winning their case, the

Lovings were finally free to do

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what they wanted to do all along.

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They lived quietly in Virginia as husband

wife until Richard's death in: 1975

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Tony Tidbit: So today, we

commemorate the anniversary of

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the Supreme Court case Loving v.

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Virginia, which legalized interracial

marriage here in the United States.

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We'll dive deeper into complexities 57

years later of interracial relationships.

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Following our previous discussion of

challenges faced by biracial teenagers

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in our episode Too Black to be White

and Too White to be Black, today we

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shift our focus to their fathers.

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Who will share their personal experiences

regarding their interracial, interracial

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marriages, as well, as well as tackling

public discrimination, navigating

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their children's identity issues and

confronting racial microaggressions.

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Robert Townsend, Brian Stern, and Shawn

Norville, welcome to a Black Executive

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Perspective Podcast, my brothers.

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Podcast, my brothers.

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Robert Townes: Thank you for having us.

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Brian Stern: Thank

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you.

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Shawn Norville: Glad to be here.

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Tony Tidbit: Well, number one, we want to

thank you for investing the time to come

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on to talk about a very important topic.

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Um, and as you heard, or

excuse me, as you saw the clip.

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57 years later, uh, interracial

marriage was struck down, the

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ban against interracial marriage

was struck down in: 1967

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Now we're 57 years later.

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So it would be great to hear you guys

perspective on your relationships,

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your family, your children.

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And all the things that you deal with.

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So everybody's definitely interested

to learn more about your experiences.

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So to kick this off, it'll be

great if we can get a little

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bit background from everyone.

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So starting with Brian, you go first.

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Please introduce yourself.

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Tell us about your current

occupation, where you're living and

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the racial makeup of your spouse.

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Brian Stern: Sure.

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Thank you for having me back, Tony.

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It's great to be with

you again on the podcast.

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I really appreciate the

opportunity to, uh, to speak.

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Um, so giving just a little bit of

background, uh, on me, uh, currently

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I help people become entrepreneurs.

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That's my job.

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I coach people in the

world of entrepreneur.

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Um, as far as my marriage, I am

coming up on my 16th anniversary.

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Uh, being married to a very beautiful

Filipino woman who was born and raised

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in a very rural part of the Philippines.

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She came over here as an

adult, um, when we met.

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And um, we have a beautiful

daughter at the age of 13.

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So a brand new teenager in the

household, which is a whole other thing

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to have fun to talk about as well.

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Tony Tidbit: I can imagine, my friend.

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And where are you residing at, Brian?

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Brian Stern: I am on the Jersey shore.

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Okay, great.

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Tony Tidbit: So

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he's in New Jersey.

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So welcome my brother.

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And again, for those who, um,

probably not aware, Brian Stern came

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on and talked about interracial,

uh, his interracial, um, marriage

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back in one of our earlier episodes.

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So I'm so glad you came back, my friend,

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Shawn,

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Shawn Norville: my brother, um,

Shawn Norville, uh, My wife and I

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have been married for 18 years, but

we've known each other since college.

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So we're coming up on a

quarter century at this point.

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Um, I am from the island of Barbados.

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Uh, my wife, uh, is from, um,

Southeast Asia from India and

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it's where her family's from.

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And, uh, you know, we reside

currently right now in Los Angeles,

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but we're formerly, uh, New York

residents, uh, New York proud.

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Um, our kids now are eight.

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Six, four, and two, um,

three boys and one girl.

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And, uh, yeah, they're, uh, quite

the project management nightmare.

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Tony Tidbit: Seems like you got

your hands full, my brother.

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So it's all good though.

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That's all good.

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So again, thanks, Shawn.

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Really appreciate you joining a

black executive perspective to talk

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about this topic, Robert towns.

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Robert Townes: How are you doing?

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Thank you for having me.

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And thank you for opening up

this dialogue, because I think

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this is very important to have.

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You know, our perspective

on this, this topic.

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And I look forward to diving

into this conversation more.

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So Robert Towns, I am a, um, a director

of external affairs at a local children's

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museum in Norwalk, Connecticut.

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I live in Connecticut, been

married to my wife for 19 years.

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We're coming up on 20 this October.

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We're looking forward to celebrating that.

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I have a 16 year old boy

and a 14 year old girl.

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I'm very excited to talk about this for,

uh, A lot of reasons, including the fact

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that we mentioned Loving versus Virginia.

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My family is from Virginia originally.

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Um, I grew up in Connecticut,

but my family's from Virginia.

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So I drive past that historical marker

on Route 301 in Virginia all the time

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that marks where they were arrested.

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And so, um, this is something that I've

thought about, you know, Supreme Court

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decisions and the current climate.

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And it's like, this is time

to talk about this again.

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So thank you for having me.

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Tony Tidbit: Thanks, my brother.

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I really appreciate that.

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And, and the racial makeup of

your wife, your lovely wife.

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Robert Townes: Oh, sorry about that.

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No worries.

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Yes.

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Racial makeup of my family.

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My, my wife is, uh, uh, Italian

Irish, you know, from, like I

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said, here in, uh, Connecticut.

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And I'm a black American,

uh, family from Virginia.

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And, uh, you know, uh, one of the

things about our, our family as well

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is, uh, that, that whole Virginia thing,

you know, we go into the deep South

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sometimes and it is a different place.

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And 1967 still exists in

certain pockets of Virginia.

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So, um, again, like I said, you know,

the fact that my white wife can go down

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there, I, I, I'm really looking forward

to being able to dive deeper into this.

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Tony Tidbit: Okay, brah.

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Well, let's start with

you on this then, right?

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Um, tell us, why did you want to come

on the black executive perspective

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podcast to talk about this, this topic?

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Robert Townes: The biggest reason is

because I'm concerned about the present.

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I know we talk about 1967 as if

that's a long time ago, but so

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much of what's happening today.

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May counteract a lot of the progress

that's been made over the last few

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years in last, you know, uh, 50

something years Um, i'm talking

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about my my mom really quickly.

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Um, the movie remember the titans

that's: 1970

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about the desegregation of a

high school in northern virginia.

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Well, that was also my mom's senior

year I was born in: 1975

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have to go back into the history

books to talk about what the time

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was like before All of this happened.

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I can just talk to my mom about it.

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I'm blessed that she's still

with us to be able to do that.

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And that's part of the conversation

right now is we tend to think that

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so much of this stuff happened

so long ago and it really didn't.

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And you know, we still have to be

vocal about it right now so we can

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ensure that these rights sustain.

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We don't want to go backwards.

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Tony Tidbit: Exactly.

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My brother.

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Thank you for that.

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Brian, why did you want to come

on and BEP to talk about this?

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Brian Stern: Well, I have the same

reasons that Robert mentioned.

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Number one.

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You know, the history repeats

itself if you don't learn from it.

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And I think we can be part of

helping to educate people a little

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bit through our experiences.

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Um, and I think the, the second reason

is, and we talked about this a little

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bit last time, is that this is not a

topic that I have spent a lot of time

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talking about, even with my own wife.

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And I, you know, I actually appreciate

having a safe space to come and

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talk about these issues, um, and,

and learn from, from others that

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are experiencing a lot of the same

things that I may be experiencing.

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Tony Tidbit: Thanks, man.

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Shawn?

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Shawn Norville: Uh, for me, it's

about, um, when we talk about

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Today's world in the youth.

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Uh, you know, Robert hit it on it.

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Um, I always talk to all the young

kids that I mentor and tell them how

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much progress we've made in the world.

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You know, I start with the positive

and said, it's been if you really

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think about the grand scheme of world

things, we've made great strides.

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Black people in a short period

of time, but we cannot forget.

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How much more we have to go.

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And for some reason, this country,

ever since we've had a black president

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has forgotten that there's racism that

exists in this world in this country.

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And for us, it's rapidly deteriorating

the strides that we've made.

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And for some of us who, you know, grew

up a little bit younger, maybe in the

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90s, you know, it feels like we fell

asleep at the wheel a little bit.

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And there's a, there's a

movement that's sort of shifting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The fabric, the laws in our country.

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Um, and if we're not steadfast in

terms of how we respond to it, we

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could lose a lot of different things.

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And as a person who has biracial kids,

there's always a talk about them being

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black or the one drop rule, or, you

know, being of a different ethnicity,

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um, and not sort of not being either

or, um, but for them, I want them to

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understand their ethnicity on both sides,

not just, you know, one or the other.

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But it's important for

me to have this dialogue.

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Uh, learn, give my experience so that

other people out there in the community

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can understand and learn from that.

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And also just reach out to say,

hey, look, there's somebody

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else having the same issues.

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You know, my kids are relatively

young, but they face racism at

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quite a young age from kindergarten

down to, you know, 2nd grade.

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And that's why I wanted to be on

here to just talk about those things.

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So people can be cognizant and aware.

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Tony Tidbit: Thank all three of you.

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I really appreciate that.

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And you guys totally make sense.

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And I, I cannot disagree

with anything you all said.

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So let me ask you this question.

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Are you guys ready to talk about it?

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Robert Townes: Yeah,

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Shawn Norville: absolutely.

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Tony Tidbit: All right, my

brothers, let's talk about it.

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So, Shawn, I'm going to

back up to you, my friend.

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So, you know, you guys

been married 19 years.

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You're originally from the

East coast, New York, correct?

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So just briefly talk a little

bit about where you grow up.

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And then the follow up question I have,

did you ever, See yourself when you

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were young, um, being in an interracial

relationship and not that you're not

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not that you're old today, my brother

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I'm talking tadpole time.

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Okay.

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So so when you were tadpole,

did you see yourself being in

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an interracial relationship?

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Shawn Norville: Honestly, no.

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Um, from what I know and where, and

again, I, and I, I speak to my experience

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and I, my family's from Barbados, and

if you understand how the slave trade

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worked, you understand there's a lot

of people from, um, Southeast Asia and

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from India who have been, uh, you know,

part of that process made it to Africa

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and some parts of South America and

some parts of the Caribbean islands.

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So when I talk about being an

inter interracial marriage.

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The woman that I've married historically

and from where I'm from, where she

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visually looks like, looks like

people that where I'm from, right.

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And from the islands that I, that I had,

you know, that we sort of commerce with.

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So for me, it wasn't like I was being

an interracial marriage or I was

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marrying somebody outside of my culture

because I really married someone that

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I thought was someone to my culture.

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Um, but it was everyone else's

viewpoint of who I was marrying

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and also her family as well.

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So it was interesting dynamic

and growing up in New York.

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Uh, Brooklyn specifically

where you're spoiled with the

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melting pot that you are in.

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Uh, but once you leave those

areas of comfort and safety,

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everyone looks at you differently.

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Everyone has different questions and then

everyone treats you a little sort of way.

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So, you know, that's a

little bit about, about us.

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Tony Tidbit: Oh, thanks buddy.

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Brian, let me pose the same

question to you, my brother.

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Brian Stern: So I grew up

in rural New Jersey, um, out

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in, you know, horse country.

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And it was incredibly, incredibly, for

lack of a better term, white, right?

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Very little diversity.

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Um, so no, I, I really did not

conceive of, of being in an interracial

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relationship when I grew older.

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Um, so

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the big difference for me was when I

moved to New York and getting exposure.

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To just an incredible array of

different cultures and experiences

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that really opened my eyes.

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Um,

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but you know, from a, from a

family standpoint, I think my

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family was always open to the idea.

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There wasn't any, any tension

or any, um, issue there.

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It was just never something

that was part of our discussion.

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Tony Tidbit: Right,

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right, right.

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Robert, what about you, my man?

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I know you, Virginia, and so talk, speak.

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Robert Townes: So, so I grew up, but

I grew up in Southern Connecticut.

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I grew up in Stanford.

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So right here in the tri state area.

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So a lot of diversity in my town.

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But I talk about those Virginia

years because I used to

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spend my summers in Virginia.

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So a lot of formative time

away from the diversity that

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I knew existed back at home.

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But then you go to Virginia and

everything was black and white,

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black and white, black and white.

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So for me growing up, did I

ever think that I would be in

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an interracial relationship?

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I grew up with a lot of people from a lot

of diverse backgrounds, but never did.

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I never thought about it at all.

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Um, and, uh, one of the things with

my family is they've always been open

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to me being able to be with whoever

I wanted to be and bring home who I

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brought home, but, um, didn't have to

walk far to hear other things as well.

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And, uh, you know, I know for instance,

uh, within the black community, some

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people would say, you know, Hey.

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If she can't use her comb, don't

bring her home, you know, so I

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would hear the stuff like that.

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But then also, growing up in Stanford,

I knew what those town lines meant.

312

: 00:15:18

So, crossing into certain

communities, like a New Canaan

313

: 00:15:21

or a Darien or a Greenwich.

314

: 00:15:23

And knowing that me, I'm not welcome.

315

: 00:15:25

And so, you know, like people,

you know, know that they don't

316

: 00:15:28

want to bring, don't want me to be

brought home to daddy, so to speak.

317

: 00:15:31

Um,

318

: 00:15:32

Tony Tidbit: Well, just hold on one

319

: 00:15:32

second, Robert, just so everybody's

on the same page because not

320

: 00:15:34

everybody's from Connecticut.

321

: 00:15:35

So when you say Darien and So

322

: 00:15:37

Robert Townes: Greenwich,

Stanford, Darien, they're the

323

: 00:15:41

southern most towns or cities.

324

: 00:15:43

In Connecticut, about 30 miles away

from New York City, but they call

325

: 00:15:47

a nickname for Fairfield County,

Connecticut is the Gold Coast.

326

: 00:15:50

And those are three of the wealthiest

towns in the United States as well.

327

: 00:15:53

So Stanford is a very diverse

socioeconomic and racially diverse

328

: 00:15:58

area, town of about 130, 140, 000.

329

: 00:16:01

But those other surrounding

towns are very, very different.

330

: 00:16:05

Um, you know, and, uh, very wealthy

and, um, as a, as, as a matter

331

: 00:16:10

of course, a lot of times not

as welcoming to the diversity,

332

: 00:16:14

or at least they were back then.

333

: 00:16:16

Tony Tidbit: Right.

334

: 00:16:17

Not, not, and it wasn't a very diverse.

335

: 00:16:19

It's not a very diverse.

336

: 00:16:20

Not, not

337

: 00:16:20

Robert Townes: diverse at all.

338

: 00:16:21

You know, socioeconomically,

everybody's pretty wealthy.

339

: 00:16:24

Got it.

340

: 00:16:25

So

341

: 00:16:26

Tony Tidbit: let me ask you

this and I'll start with Brian.

342

: 00:16:29

So what attracted you?

343

: 00:16:30

So your wife is Asian.

344

: 00:16:32

What attracted you to your wife?

345

: 00:16:37

Brian Stern: What a loaded question, huh?

346

: 00:16:42

Don't

347

: 00:16:42

Speaker 3: mess up.

348

: 00:16:43

Brian Stern: Yeah, I

349

: 00:16:43

know, right?

350

: 00:16:45

She's standing right behind me.

351

: 00:16:47

Um, She was introduced

to me through a friend.

352

: 00:16:53

And I think, you know, the friend thought

we had a lot in common and we did.

353

: 00:16:57

Um, so I think a lot of it wasn't

the differences between us.

354

: 00:17:00

It was just the commonality, similar

sense of humor, um, similar passions

355

: 00:17:05

for, you know, some of our hobbies, like

traveling and, um, you know, exploring.

356

: 00:17:09

Different things culturally

that we were both attracted to.

357

: 00:17:12

I think it was a lot

of those commonalities.

358

: 00:17:13

I mean, it's the same as any

relationship, I suppose, right?

359

: 00:17:16

It's the things that dry together.

360

: 00:17:18

Aren't going to be the commonalities

versus the differences.

361

: 00:17:21

So I don't know.

362

: 00:17:22

I don't think that race had any, any

factor in what brought us together at all.

363

: 00:17:27

It certainly has played a factor since

we've been together, but not part of the

364

: 00:17:31

initiation of the relationship at all.

365

: 00:17:33

Tony Tidbit: Shawn.

366

: 00:17:37

Shawn Norville: Huh?

367

: 00:17:38

That's a, that feels like one

of those Steve Harvey family.

368

: 00:17:40

Few questions.

369

: 00:17:41

When you, if you answer it the

wrong way, you might be on the

370

: 00:17:44

couch for the next week, you

371

: 00:17:45

Tony Tidbit: can get no point.

372

: 00:17:46

So you can get a hundred points.

373

: 00:17:50

Shawn Norville: No, it's, um, really

and truly, it was, uh, her values,

374

: 00:17:55

um, were very, they mimicked a lot of

my values, the way she, um, you know,

375

: 00:18:01

conducted herself with her parents,

the way she viewed life, the way she

376

: 00:18:04

viewed family, um, the way she operated.

377

: 00:18:06

Yeah.

378

: 00:18:07

It was very, uh, similar and in line

with how I and my family operate, you

379

: 00:18:11

know, and the way I treated my mother,

the way my, I respected my father.

380

: 00:18:15

And when we, we were really best

friends, uh, in the beginning.

381

: 00:18:19

And it was funny because we met in

accounting, which was probably one of

382

: 00:18:22

my, my, my, one of my best subjects.

383

: 00:18:25

But like, I was just like, oh, I was

just, lemme just really go all in this.

384

: 00:18:28

And I, and I got to the point

where she was like, looking at my

385

: 00:18:32

notes, I'm like, wait a second.

386

: 00:18:33

Stereotypically, I might also

be looking at your notes, right?

387

: 00:18:35

And we just formed a bond where

we listen to the same music, ate

388

: 00:18:40

similar foods, like they have curry.

389

: 00:18:42

We have different curries.

390

: 00:18:43

They have roti.

391

: 00:18:43

We have a little bit of variation of roti.

392

: 00:18:45

Again, we talked about that, that slave

trade, uh, similarity or alignment.

393

: 00:18:50

And funny enough, many people don't

even understand or realize that

394

: 00:18:53

connection that we built that.

395

: 00:18:54

Baseline connection.

396

: 00:18:55

And that's what attracted me to her.

397

: 00:18:57

Um, you know, the shared values,

the shared cultural symbolism of

398

: 00:19:02

what her family life was like.

399

: 00:19:03

Well, mine was like, it just made

like a symbiotic relationship.

400

: 00:19:06

You know, you joined that with living

in similar settings and having similar

401

: 00:19:10

familiarity, uh, parent parental

structures and, you know, your mom

402

: 00:19:14

being the matriarch and, you know,

just things of that nature, but still

403

: 00:19:16

respecting the family dynamic of

The husband and what he does in the

404

: 00:19:20

relationship and, and, and being the

father and what that understands.

405

: 00:19:23

And as you get older, you're going

to appreciate that individual

406

: 00:19:26

and that person more and more to

want to build a family with them.

407

: 00:19:29

And that's what attracted me to my wife.

408

: 00:19:30

Tony Tidbit: Got it.

409

: 00:19:31

Got it.

410

: 00:19:31

And Robert, I know your wife, Shannon.

411

: 00:19:33

So talk to

412

: 00:19:34

me, my man, and you know,

she's going to listen to this.

413

: 00:19:36

So,

414

: 00:19:37

Robert Townes: oh, yes.

415

: 00:19:38

Uh, you know, so we, we met at work.

416

: 00:19:40

We both worked at a local television

station in New Haven, Connecticut.

417

: 00:19:44

And the first thing that I

would say about it is that we

418

: 00:19:46

would have fun together at work.

419

: 00:19:48

Lots of times laughing,

joking, stuff like that.

420

: 00:19:50

So since the humor was pretty similar.

421

: 00:19:52

Um, despite the fact that

she'll never admit to that.

422

: 00:19:55

But, um, the other thing about it,

though, is we had a lot of commonality

423

: 00:19:59

with the things that we like to do.

424

: 00:20:01

So, um, she worked also at a

hip hop station in New York.

425

: 00:20:06

And so we had a lot of shared

interest in the music and the

426

: 00:20:08

artists that we were listening to.

427

: 00:20:10

Um, we had a good time when

we would hang out together.

428

: 00:20:13

And from there, it just blossomed.

429

: 00:20:15

I mean, and then we realized that there

were a lot of other commonalities as well.

430

: 00:20:18

Both of us, the product of divorced

households and other things like that,

431

: 00:20:21

where there was shared experience.

432

: 00:20:23

Right.

433

: 00:20:24

And so despite the fact that we grew

up in different places and, and,

434

: 00:20:27

um, you know, we had different, you

know, racial backgrounds, you know,

435

: 00:20:29

we had a lot of similarities and,

and, and we have a similar worldview.

436

: 00:20:33

So things just clicked.

437

: 00:20:35

Tony Tidbit: So what I'm hearing, um,

is that at the day, and Brian, you said

438

: 00:20:38

it point blank, that you guys met your

spouses, there was, it was really, it had

439

: 00:20:44

anything to do with the color of their

skin or anything like that, it was about

440

: 00:20:47

commonality, it's about regular things

that you would be attracted to in any,

441

: 00:20:52

with any human being, is that correct?

442

: 00:20:55

Exactly, right?

443

: 00:20:56

So at the day, you're walking the earth.

444

: 00:21:00

And at the end of the day, you run into

your future wife, and you guys became

445

: 00:21:04

friends, and, and a lot of things you guys

like to do together, and the next thing

446

: 00:21:08

you know, the relationship blossomed,

and the last thing that came to your

447

: 00:21:12

mind is like, oh, she's different than

me, and looks different than me, right?

448

: 00:21:16

And you fell in love.

449

: 00:21:17

So let's jettison a little

ahead, a little, uh, ahead now.

450

: 00:21:21

Now, you're together.

451

: 00:21:23

Now, you love each other.

452

: 00:21:25

However, tell us a little bit how the

world saw you, or did you guys have

453

: 00:21:31

certain conversations that you didn't

have, that you didn't see internally?

454

: 00:21:36

Because you just saw each other as the

strengths and the love and this and that.

455

: 00:21:41

But now you got to have conversations

about how you look or how she looks.

456

: 00:21:45

So who wants to kick

that conversation off?

457

: 00:21:48

When did that happen?

458

: 00:21:49

Was that the first date or was

that five years into the marriage?

459

: 00:21:52

Talk to a talk.

460

: 00:21:53

Who want to kick that off?

461

: 00:21:54

I'm gonna throw it out there.

462

: 00:21:55

You guys do it.

463

: 00:21:56

I'll do it.

464

: 00:21:57

Okay.

465

: 00:21:57

Robert.

466

: 00:21:57

Okay.

467

: 00:21:57

Go ahead, buddy.

468

: 00:21:58

You bite.

469

: 00:21:58

I see you biting

470

: 00:21:59

Robert Townes: at the bit.

471

: 00:22:00

One of the, one of the things that,

that from the, from day one and is

472

: 00:22:04

unspoken with me, but I know that

it was there for me is wondering

473

: 00:22:09

how people thought about it.

474

: 00:22:10

What people thought, you know,

because I've already had experienced

475

: 00:22:13

it beforehand, um, did not date

interracially, but even just being

476

: 00:22:17

around people at times hearing,

you know, hearing comments.

477

: 00:22:20

So I remember one time, for instance,

um, New Year's night and New Year's Eve

478

: 00:22:24

out with friends, you know, a diverse

group, and, um, I'm simply being a

479

: 00:22:28

gentleman and walking someone to the

bathroom and this woman behind me

480

: 00:22:32

says, leave her, leave the snowflake.

481

: 00:22:34

I mean, like, you know,

you hear stuff like that.

482

: 00:22:36

So I know and was ready.

483

: 00:22:38

For comments to come my way.

484

: 00:22:39

One thing that didn't happen though,

is those comments didn't really

485

: 00:22:42

happen, but I was prepared to,

to, to think about that and how it

486

: 00:22:46

would impact the way that we were.

487

: 00:22:48

Um, also, um, no, another situation

where, um, going to meet family,

488

: 00:22:54

you know, and just wondering how the

family's going to receive, et cetera.

489

: 00:22:57

And so just trying to make sure, you

know, being ready for whatever happened,

490

: 00:23:02

but being very blessed and very

fortunate that nothing really did happen.

491

: 00:23:06

No comments were really said.

492

: 00:23:08

That ever shook our foundation.

493

: 00:23:11

Tony Tidbit: Did you guys, and

just to be back up a second,

494

: 00:23:13

you said ditch the snowflakes.

495

: 00:23:15

So just so everybody's clear,

like, what does that mean?

496

: 00:23:17

Robert Townes: So, so I was out

like with a diverse group of people.

497

: 00:23:20

And so one of the, one of the

women in the party that we were

498

: 00:23:23

out with was a white woman.

499

: 00:23:25

And so, you know, at one point in the

evening, she wanted to, you know, go

500

: 00:23:29

to the restroom or something like that.

501

: 00:23:30

And nobody was going to go with her.

502

: 00:23:31

So I was just going to go stand

by the door, just be a gentleman.

503

: 00:23:34

Right.

504

: 00:23:35

And there were, there was a

group of black women there and

505

: 00:23:37

they thought I was with her.

506

: 00:23:39

And so one of them said to me,

you know, it's New Year's Eve,

507

: 00:23:42

so people have been drinking.

508

: 00:23:44

And one of those women said to

me, ditch the snowflake, you know,

509

: 00:23:46

like talking about the white woman.

510

: 00:23:48

I'm like, that's my coworker.

511

: 00:23:49

Like I, not, that's not,

we're not like that.

512

: 00:23:51

But, but just knowing that, that,

that kind of mentality exists.

513

: 00:23:55

Tony Tidbit: Right.

514

: 00:23:55

Robert Townes: You know, wanted to, you

know, like I said, when I was with, you

515

: 00:23:58

know, Shannon in the beginning, ready to

slings and arrows that might come our way.

516

: 00:24:03

And very blessed that nothing

really happened like that.

517

: 00:24:07

But, you know, we did end up having

to have certain conversations just

518

: 00:24:11

so we were prepared, you know,

knew how we would try to react.

519

: 00:24:14

If something were to happen, but

we're blessed that nothing did happen.

520

: 00:24:16

Tony Tidbit: Got it.

521

: 00:24:17

Got it.

522

: 00:24:18

Who wants to, who wants to go next?

523

: 00:24:21

Shawn Norville: I'll go next.

524

: 00:24:22

Um, for me, we knew from day

one, uh, it would be problematic,

525

: 00:24:27

um, from both cultures.

526

: 00:24:30

Um, historically, like, um, uh, she

knew her, where her family, uh, they

527

: 00:24:37

had just certain, um, Things that they

traditions, uh, cultural, cultural

528

: 00:24:43

norms, uh, that they did, um, you know,

even down to, um, just where the person

529

: 00:24:48

is from and, um, you know, uh, what

language they spoke or what, uh, dialect.

530

: 00:24:53

Right.

531

: 00:24:53

So it's very, you know, it's very

specific, uh, within her culture for

532

: 00:24:57

me, it was around, um, and I'll, you

know, I'll speak more to my side of it.

533

: 00:25:02

Um, because as a black man living in,

um, New York city, you are ultimately, if

534

: 00:25:08

you started dating outside of your race,

you are afraid of the black woman, um,

535

: 00:25:12

and, and, and the, the, the effect that

that's going to have on her, but also

536

: 00:25:18

the response you're going to get right.

537

: 00:25:20

And there's the, you know, the

look or the nod while you're on

538

: 00:25:24

the train with your significant

other or girlfriend or whatever.

539

: 00:25:28

And, um, it sort of eats away at your.

540

: 00:25:31

Your soul, because you almost sometimes

feel like you're betraying your mother

541

: 00:25:35

or your sister, because there's this

connotation that a few days outside of

542

: 00:25:38

your race, you don't love black women the

same as you do other women, because you've

543

: 00:25:41

been brainwashed to like certain types

of hair or certain types of complexions.

544

: 00:25:46

And that complexity definitely added

to, um, I want to say hesitation,

545

: 00:25:52

doubt, um, uh, commitment, um,

you know, to the whole situation.

546

: 00:25:58

We, we live in a world where, where.

547

: 00:26:00

Where, where our bravado and being

an over sexualized women is sort of

548

: 00:26:05

glorified and I wasn't that really kind

of guy where I knew when I met my wife,

549

: 00:26:10

I told her when we were dating that I

was going to marry her and she thought

550

: 00:26:13

I was joking, but she did not know that.

551

: 00:26:16

A year before I proposed to her,

I was actually engaging into a

552

: 00:26:19

relation, into a relationship with

building her mom and speaking to

553

: 00:26:22

her mother every other day because I

understood culturally where she was at.

554

: 00:26:26

Right.

555

: 00:26:26

And where she was and what she

was, what she had to do, meaning

556

: 00:26:29

she had to possibly be with me.

557

: 00:26:31

And if it being with me, that meant

she had to walk away from her whole

558

: 00:26:34

family is what she thought at the time.

559

: 00:26:36

Tony Tidbit: Right.

560

: 00:26:36

Shawn Norville: Um, so,

so it's on both sides.

561

: 00:26:39

It was, we were well

aware of those factors.

562

: 00:26:43

Um, you know, so I want to cut it short

there, but I'll give Brian a chance as

563

: 00:26:49

Tony Tidbit: Thanks Shawn.

564

: 00:26:50

Brian.

565

: 00:26:50

Brian Stern: Sure.

566

: 00:26:50

I think, yeah, thank you.

567

: 00:26:53

Um, I think my experience is a little bit

different clearly because I am the white

568

: 00:26:58

guy, um, and with a, uh, a Filipino woman.

569

: 00:27:02

I think, you know, coming from her

culture, you just don't talk about race.

570

: 00:27:06

It's just something like she just

didn't want to talk about it.

571

: 00:27:09

And I think coming from the

outside, coming from a very

572

: 00:27:12

sheltered, Non diverse background.

573

: 00:27:14

I became very hypersensitive to

every little thing that I thought

574

: 00:27:19

was some sort of racial slight,

whether it was in a restaurant, not

575

: 00:27:22

getting served or seated properly,

576

: 00:27:23

or it was, um,

577

: 00:27:25

you know, in a store not being helped or

having my wife being watched because she

578

: 00:27:29

came in and speaking a different language

on the phone to her sister or something.

579

: 00:27:33

Um, and I assumed everything was racial

and I wanted to be the guy who stood

580

: 00:27:37

up for her, that the hero would come

in and, you know, defend her honor.

581

: 00:27:41

Um, and so I became like, I

know this is cliche, but like

582

: 00:27:45

the angry white guy, right?

583

: 00:27:46

Like I became the guy who was like,

everything was racial and I wanted to talk

584

: 00:27:49

about it and I wanted to fight everybody.

585

: 00:27:51

I wanted to fight the world

and get angry about it.

586

: 00:27:53

But my wife just didn't

want to talk about it.

587

: 00:27:54

It just wasn't a big deal to her.

588

: 00:27:57

So it actually festered with me because

I didn't have an outlet to talk about

589

: 00:28:01

it because, you know, it's not something

that, that she was ready to talk.

590

: 00:28:05

Um, but it's something that I've

had to, um, develop a callous.

591

: 00:28:09

You know, over time, when you see these

little things, it actually takes more

592

: 00:28:12

energy to, to, to deal with this nonsense

than it does to resolve the issue.

593

: 00:28:17

And a lot of times it's, I've

learned that sometimes you just

594

: 00:28:20

have to let things go, which still

kind of eats at me a little bit,

595

: 00:28:23

particularly when it comes to my child.

596

: 00:28:26

Because what kind of

example am I setting, right?

597

: 00:28:28

That's where it becomes a real issue.

598

: 00:28:30

When we see these little things happen

and my wife doesn't want to talk about

599

: 00:28:33

it, she doesn't want me to address

it, but my daughter is right there.

600

: 00:28:37

How could I let it go?

601

: 00:28:37

Right.

602

: 00:28:38

Right.

603

: 00:28:39

Tony Tidbit: Let me ask you this, though,

Brian, um, because you said something,

604

: 00:28:42

and, and, well, let me say this first.

605

: 00:28:44

Um, what I'm hearing is, and let's

just, I'm, I'm gonna play back

606

: 00:28:48

everything that you guys said, right?

607

: 00:28:50

Hey, I got in this relationship

excluding excluding Brian.

608

: 00:28:54

He said I'm a little bit different,

but let me just show on in Robert

609

: 00:28:57

I got in this relationship.

610

: 00:28:58

I fell in love with this person

But immediately I had a monkey

611

: 00:29:03

on my back because I had to start

thinking about all these other things

612

: 00:29:08

How the black woman is gonna do?

613

: 00:29:10

I'm how she how they gonna look at me

and treat me how the how My family or

614

: 00:29:15

her family may deal with certain things.

615

: 00:29:17

So that's an extra weight You Immediately

that you are automatically start carrying

616

: 00:29:23

just to have a relationship, okay?

617

: 00:29:26

So I want to get back to that, but I

want to go to where Brian said because

618

: 00:29:29

Brian you said listen You know, I

didn't you know, as soon as we came

619

: 00:29:35

together I started seeing you know

I became the angry white dude where

620

: 00:29:40

I everything became ratio and every

little slight Wasn't because of this

621

: 00:29:44

wasn't because of that blah blah blah.

622

: 00:29:46

Let me ask you this before You

You started dating your wife.

623

: 00:29:51

Did you see those slights before?

624

: 00:29:55

Brian Stern: I think I did,

625

: 00:29:56

but I just wasn't as sensitive to it.

626

: 00:29:59

And I think that's a gift actually

that I've been given is that

627

: 00:30:02

actually now I am sensitive to it.

628

: 00:30:04

Um, so on one hand, I'm, I'm very

grateful that I have a much greater

629

: 00:30:09

appreciation for how the world is.

630

: 00:30:12

Um, but it's also one of those things

where it's, you know, it's upsetting to

631

: 00:30:17

know how the world is on that level too.

632

: 00:30:20

Um, and then the worst part about

it is not knowing what to do and

633

: 00:30:23

how to behave in those situations.

634

: 00:30:26

Tony Tidbit: So let's go.

635

: 00:30:27

So number one, thanks for sharing that.

636

: 00:30:29

So Shawn, Robert, did you, so this, let's

just go back to what you guys were saying.

637

: 00:30:35

Hey, look, you know, all of a

sudden I had to worry about.

638

: 00:30:38

You know, what black people or black

women specifically would say or look at

639

: 00:30:42

me, um, because I'm with my spouse, okay?

640

: 00:30:46

And then you had specifically,

Robert, where, you know,

641

: 00:30:49

ditched the snowflake, alright?

642

: 00:30:51

So, how did you get over,

did you get over that?

643

: 00:30:54

Okay?

644

: 00:30:55

What did it take for you to overcome that?

645

: 00:30:57

Uh, in terms of you feeling

confident that you're with who

646

: 00:31:02

God put in your life to be with.

647

: 00:31:05

Talk to us a little bit about that.

648

: 00:31:09

Robert Townes: So I say number one, um,

part of the way that, that I dealt with

649

: 00:31:15

it before and still deal with it today

is that we'd navigate that kind of space

650

: 00:31:19

in the world all the time, including now.

651

: 00:31:23

So, um, the fact that I've been with

my wife for about 25 years, we've

652

: 00:31:26

been married for almost 20 now,

um, it's still a daily occurrence.

653

: 00:31:31

I'd never know when I walk into a space.

654

: 00:31:34

How things are going to be accepted.

655

: 00:31:36

And I say that not just dealing with

going into a black community and how black

656

: 00:31:41

women or black people treat us, but in

certain, especially in areas where I'm

657

: 00:31:45

not as familiar, don't know how white

people or others will treat as well.

658

: 00:31:50

So it's still a top of mind

thing for me all along.

659

: 00:31:55

Um, the one thing I would say

about it though, is as far as the

660

: 00:31:58

confidence is concerned, et cetera.

661

: 00:32:00

Is that.

662

: 00:32:01

I just become more comfortable in

my own skin and don't care about

663

: 00:32:06

what other people think as much

anymore when I was in my 20s.

664

: 00:32:10

You know, you still are trying to show out

and show up and be around other people,

665

: 00:32:13

but now I, you know, I'm just living my

life and, and reality is what would get

666

: 00:32:18

me, get my back up a little bit more about

this is now seeing the slights and, and

667

: 00:32:22

dealing with things with my children,

668

: 00:32:24

you

669

: 00:32:24

know, now I'm living for them

and trying to help them get into

670

: 00:32:27

a space where they can go out in

the world and be the confident

671

: 00:32:29

people they need to be, et cetera.

672

: 00:32:31

And I'm trying to help

them navigate things.

673

: 00:32:33

And so, you know, as far as me and

my wife is concerned, we're good.

674

: 00:32:36

But.

675

: 00:32:37

Don't mess with our kids.

676

: 00:32:39

Tony Tidbit: I love it.

677

: 00:32:40

Shawn, anything you want

to add to that, my man?

678

: 00:32:42

Shawn Norville: Um, first and foremost,

I want to say, uh, Brian, thanks for

679

: 00:32:46

your perspective and your transparency

in, um, realization in terms of

680

: 00:32:53

the difficulties and complexities

that you've been dealing with.

681

: 00:32:55

And I think, I think your voice.

682

: 00:32:58

Is a voice is not heard a lot, uh,

but your perspective would be valued.

683

: 00:33:03

Um, so I just wanted to thank you for

sharing that, uh, with us, because I

684

: 00:33:06

think that I think I appreciate that.

685

: 00:33:08

That's really, really, um, impactful.

686

: 00:33:11

So don't, don't, don't think that

that's going to be glaze over,

687

: 00:33:13

uh, for anyone watching this.

688

: 00:33:15

For me, um, I knew I was ready.

689

: 00:33:20

Uh, because my wife is my day

one, she's my ride or die.

690

: 00:33:23

Um, I'm a kid from Brooklyn, New York.

691

: 00:33:25

Right.

692

: 00:33:25

And we have to keep our

head on a swivel, right?

693

: 00:33:27

I grew up in a time where there was

bloods, crips, gangs, land Kings.

694

: 00:33:31

Um, and I live, you know,

my family was middle class.

695

: 00:33:34

So we had what was considered a little

bit of money, which we all know it was not

696

: 00:33:39

real money in the grand scheme of things.

697

: 00:33:41

But, you know, I had nice shoes, I

had Jordans and things like that.

698

: 00:33:44

So I, I was always confident in myself

as a person, like, you know, like for

699

: 00:33:47

me, I've always been a confident person.

700

: 00:33:49

But the one thing that I held.

701

: 00:33:51

Uh, on my back was I always, always

wanted to make my parents proud.

702

: 00:33:54

Always want to make my community proud.

703

: 00:33:56

I was gonna make my people proud.

704

: 00:33:57

I've always been that kind of person.

705

: 00:33:59

Um, and then you fall in love with

your best friend and your best

706

: 00:34:01

friends from a different culture.

707

: 00:34:03

Um, but they share the same values.

708

: 00:34:05

And then when you fall in love with

that person, you know, what made me

709

: 00:34:09

knew I was ready to go forward and

doesn't matter what anybody cares

710

: 00:34:12

when she came to me and said, I

need to know what we're doing here.

711

: 00:34:16

Are we committed to this situation?

712

: 00:34:18

Because if we can commit a situation,

I'm going to let everybody know in

713

: 00:34:21

my world that I'm doing this and

they're either here with me or they're

714

: 00:34:24

not whoever's here with me or not.

715

: 00:34:27

So the fact that.

716

: 00:34:29

She wrote a letter, showed it to me, said,

I'm going to send this to my parents, um,

717

: 00:34:34

cause I need to communicate this cause we

are really serious about our relationship.

718

: 00:34:37

We're going to take

this next step forward.

719

: 00:34:39

That right there is everything.

720

: 00:34:42

That's when I knew it was me and

her against the world, even to this

721

: 00:34:44

day, and we go through phases and

chapters of your life where, um,

722

: 00:34:47

you put on the armor or you grow the

callus and it doesn't bother you.

723

: 00:34:50

It doesn't matter.

724

: 00:34:51

But then to Robert's point, Brian's point,

when your kids come into this world,

725

: 00:34:56

it's your heart outside of your body.

726

: 00:34:58

Hey, you know how to handle it, and

you know how to deal with it, but

727

: 00:35:00

when the slights come their way You

get all berserk and you're all, it's

728

: 00:35:03

like, uh, like the wound is reopened.

729

: 00:35:06

So now you know how to manage that.

730

: 00:35:07

And what, and I love my wife even more

these days because now she's now seeing

731

: 00:35:12

it from a different eye, from a different

lens, sort of similar to Brian, right?

732

: 00:35:15

Whereas now it's like, you know what,

we may not have, uh, A black affinity

733

: 00:35:20

group in our school or whatever the case

may be is, but I'm going to build one.

734

: 00:35:24

Right.

735

: 00:35:24

Even though I'm not because I know

my kids need that support system.

736

: 00:35:28

Tony Tidbit: Yeah.

737

: 00:35:28

Shawn Norville: And you know,

it's these kinds of things that

738

: 00:35:31

revalidates and reaffirms that

that's the person that you rock with.

739

: 00:35:35

That's the person that you ride with.

740

: 00:35:36

That's the person that you

married and you knew from day

741

: 00:35:38

one, you made the right choice.

742

: 00:35:39

It wasn't about the culture.

743

: 00:35:40

It wasn't about the skin.

744

: 00:35:42

It wasn't about the hair.

745

: 00:35:43

It wasn't about any of the physical parts.

746

: 00:35:45

It was all that feeling,

that heart that you.

747

: 00:35:48

Organically felt in the beginning,

um, and that's what makes it easy

748

: 00:35:52

for probably Brian and Robert and

myself and to move forward, um, no

749

: 00:35:57

matter what the difficulties are.

750

: 00:35:59

Tony Tidbit: Thanks, man.

751

: 00:36:00

I really appreciate that.

752

: 00:36:01

You know, I'm going to jump in this real

quick and tell a quick story because.

753

: 00:36:05

One of the things with me, my

wife is white and my wife is from

754

: 00:36:08

a small town outside of Boston.

755

: 00:36:10

She grew up like Brian, not

a lot of diversity at all.

756

: 00:36:14

And the things that we used to

go to go through when we started

757

: 00:36:18

dating, she never saw that before.

758

: 00:36:22

She never experienced that.

759

: 00:36:24

Matter of fact, if she, when

she was dating her boyfriend

760

: 00:36:27

prior to me was a white guy.

761

: 00:36:30

They didn't go through the things

that her and I went through.

762

: 00:36:33

When we go to restaurants or

stuff to that nature, right?

763

: 00:36:37

And then when we had kids and, and

so, but it took her a while to see

764

: 00:36:41

it because prior to our relationship,

these things didn't affect her.

765

: 00:36:47

All right?

766

: 00:36:48

And sometimes I thought like, wow,

she's with me and now she's got to deal

767

: 00:36:53

with stuff that had she dated somebody

else, she would have never dealt with,

768

: 00:36:58

at least from a racial standpoint.

769

: 00:37:00

Does that make sense, my brothers?

770

: 00:37:02

Right.

771

: 00:37:03

And so that's why it's important that

sometimes people, you know, when you

772

: 00:37:08

come from a certain background and then

all of you, you may not see certain

773

: 00:37:13

things, but then all of a sudden you get

a mate that's from a totally different

774

: 00:37:17

background and it exposes you to

things that you've never seen before.

775

: 00:37:23

So, those are the things that's

very important to understand.

776

: 00:37:27

But I want to go to your kids because,

you know, one of the things is,

777

: 00:37:30

like, you know, Robert, your son

was on the episode, too, too black

778

: 00:37:35

to be white, too white to be black.

779

: 00:37:37

And he shared his experience.

780

: 00:37:39

So I want to hear about some of the

things that your kids go through.

781

: 00:37:42

But first, the first question I want

to ask you before you had kids, did you

782

: 00:37:46

and your wife sit down and talk about

what was going to come by having kids?

783

: 00:37:54

Robert Townes: Yes, this is Robert.

784

: 00:37:56

So yes, we did.

785

: 00:37:57

But I think to your point that until

it became a reality, the conversation

786

: 00:38:03

didn't land in the same way.

787

: 00:38:05

Um, you know, because it's very important

to know that You know, when we have

788

: 00:38:10

children, people may consider, people

will consider the children black in

789

: 00:38:14

my, in my situation, um, that, um,

various things may happen to them

790

: 00:38:19

because of the color of their skin.

791

: 00:38:22

But the real issue is it's an abstract

thing until you actually see it, until

792

: 00:38:27

it actually happens, until your child

actually comes home and verbalizes things.

793

: 00:38:32

So even hearing the earlier

podcast episode and hearing

794

: 00:38:37

from our son about things.

795

: 00:38:39

provokes a conversation because

we're not always talking about it,

796

: 00:38:43

but it's something that's there.

797

: 00:38:44

And now our children are able to

elaborate on situations that they

798

: 00:38:49

encounter and it makes it real.

799

: 00:38:52

Tony Tidbit: Brian, what about you, buddy?

800

: 00:38:55

Brian Stern: So prior to my daughter

being born, we talked a lot about the fact

801

: 00:38:59

that my wife's third language is English.

802

: 00:39:01

So do we want my child

to speak other languages?

803

: 00:39:04

Absolutely.

804

: 00:39:05

We talked about religion.

805

: 00:39:06

We came from different

religious backgrounds.

806

: 00:39:08

We talked about.

807

: 00:39:09

You know, cultural differences and

things, but we never talked about it

808

: 00:39:13

from the, the point of ethnicity, but

to Robert's point, it hits pretty hard

809

: 00:39:18

when you're faced with it in reality,

years later, a perfect example is COVID.

810

: 00:39:24

You know, being like, we're again in a

pretty homogenous community and being

811

: 00:39:29

one of the very few Asian kids in the

school during COVID, you can imagine

812

: 00:39:34

some of the comments that were flying

at my child, you know, go back to China.

813

: 00:39:38

You know, a lot of that, and you

know, you just, things you would

814

: 00:39:41

never conceive of that your kid would

have to go through and you don't even

815

: 00:39:45

realize it until after it's happened.

816

: 00:39:47

Right.

817

: 00:39:47

So how do you prepare your

kid for something like that?

818

: 00:39:50

So.

819

: 00:39:51

You know, we, we deal with it

as it comes and we try to deal

820

: 00:39:54

with it as best as we can.

821

: 00:39:56

But a lot of times it's such a surprise

to us that it happens just because in

822

: 00:40:02

our minds, like our relationship has been

well accepted since it's been for 15, 16

823

: 00:40:07

years, but our kids just now developing

her identity, developing her relationship.

824

: 00:40:13

So she's experiencing a whole new set

of challenges that, that we may never

825

: 00:40:17

have faced during our relationship.

826

: 00:40:19

So it's taking it as it comes.

827

: 00:40:23

Tony Tidbit: What about you, Shawn?

828

: 00:40:24

Thanks, Brian.

829

: 00:40:26

Shawn Norville: Uh, for me, I, uh, we had,

we had conversations culturally, uh, from

830

: 00:40:31

a religious standpoint, but for, for us,

we had a lot of similarities in terms of

831

: 00:40:34

the way we wanted our kids to be raised.

832

: 00:40:36

We knew we wanted to, them to

celebrate both sides of their

833

: 00:40:39

culture and their backgrounds.

834

: 00:40:41

Um, there wasn't a question about that.

835

: 00:40:43

We knew they were going to, you know.

836

: 00:40:45

You know, where, um, Indian garb

closed and then they were going to,

837

: 00:40:49

um, hear reggae and calypso from my

culture and, um, things of that nature.

838

: 00:40:53

So we knew that we had a

very, um, aligned approach.

839

: 00:40:57

What we did not, um, I think anticipate

was how early we would need to have

840

: 00:41:02

been prepared for the dialogue of them

being, um, sort of put into a box.

841

: 00:41:12

Um, earlier on, uh, and facing certain

things that they may not be able to ingest

842

: 00:41:18

and understand why people say certain

things or why people want to touch their

843

: 00:41:21

hair and that's why their hair is so

curly or why my daughter wears braids,

844

: 00:41:25

um, you know, versus, you know, It being

out and them coming to us and asking us

845

: 00:41:30

questions of, Oh, I want my hair to be

yellow and, and down like my friends.

846

: 00:41:34

Or, um, you know, why do my friends ask me

how brown my skin is and does it rub off?

847

: 00:41:39

And when you get approached with those

things in real life and real time,

848

: 00:41:44

and you're not able to react, it, it.

849

: 00:41:47

It's a bit shocking, right?

850

: 00:41:49

When I catch you off guard, you

know, you have to deal with it.

851

: 00:41:51

But to Robert's point, uh, it's

like a, it's a theory in your head.

852

: 00:41:56

You're just like, yeah,

we're going to deal with it.

853

: 00:41:57

We're going to approach it.

854

: 00:41:58

There's tons of things to

read and stuff like that.

855

: 00:42:00

And we'll go get, we'll

understand it very progressively.

856

: 00:42:02

And then it hits you in the face,

like a Mike Tyson punch in the nose.

857

: 00:42:05

And then you're just

like, Whoa, wait a second.

858

: 00:42:08

Tony Tidbit: So, so, so

back up for a second.

859

: 00:42:09

You said, so, and I want you all to speak

to this because I, you know, one of the

860

: 00:42:13

things that we dealt with with our kids is

that, you know, Uh, some people, you know,

861

: 00:42:19

would make fun of them and call them.

862

: 00:42:21

You know, different names

because they were mixed.

863

: 00:42:23

They were biracial.

864

: 00:42:25

So when you said, um, they're trying to

put them in a box, like what do you mean?

865

: 00:42:29

Specifically,

866

: 00:42:31

Shawn Norville: meaning we've

always taught our kids that

867

: 00:42:33

they're two sides of them.

868

: 00:42:34

They're fit.

869

: 00:42:34

They're half and half, but when they

go out into the world, the world only

870

: 00:42:37

sees them as one thing, that part.

871

: 00:42:39

Right.

872

: 00:42:42

Right.

873

: 00:42:43

Tony Tidbit: And then, so

how do you deal with that?

874

: 00:42:45

So when they, when, you know,

because when the kids go out, Right.

875

: 00:42:49

You only can protect them for so

you only can do a little bit, right?

876

: 00:42:52

Once they walk out in the world,

the world will then deal with them.

877

: 00:42:57

All right.

878

: 00:42:57

So, so how do you deal with

that with your children?

879

: 00:43:00

And I would like all you guys

to jump in this on this as well.

880

: 00:43:02

And how does it make you feel?

881

: 00:43:06

Shawn Norville: I mean, you know me, Tony.

882

: 00:43:07

I'm a strategy guy.

883

: 00:43:08

I come up with a plan, right?

884

: 00:43:10

So not only am I going to instill

that in the home, uh, by repetitively

885

: 00:43:14

making sure my kids know who they are.

886

: 00:43:16

We celebrate, you know,

cultural days and holidays.

887

: 00:43:18

We make sure they

understand their heritage.

888

: 00:43:20

We make sure they, they, um, Understand

where they're from and music and food

889

: 00:43:25

and traditions, but we also make sure we

share that with the teachers at school.

890

: 00:43:28

And we also make sure that we invite

their friends to the celebrations that

891

: 00:43:31

are culturally relevant and teach them

certain ways to let them know that this

892

: 00:43:35

is part of their their friends culture.

893

: 00:43:36

So now.

894

: 00:43:37

Maybe not the parents so much, but we,

their friends will now know their friends

895

: 00:43:41

will now understand why when my kid shows

up with, um, you know, Indian clothes,

896

: 00:43:46

uh, because, because he's celebrating

holy or a different festival or different

897

: 00:43:50

holiday, uh, that's part of his culture.

898

: 00:43:52

So, it's things like that.

899

: 00:43:53

We make sure we instill in them, but

also we invite and pull people in,

900

: 00:43:57

um, as well as the community that

they are in on a regular basis to

901

: 00:44:01

make sure that everyone is aware.

902

: 00:44:02

So I usually am tired of educating

of the people, but it's actually my

903

: 00:44:06

job to make sure that my kids are

in a safe environment and that I'm

904

: 00:44:09

educating and letting people know

about who they are, um, as people.

905

: 00:44:12

Brian Stern: I

906

: 00:44:15

think for, for my daughter, what we've

done is just make sure that she gets

907

: 00:44:19

exposure to not just her own heritage,

but because she appreciates the fact

908

: 00:44:24

that she has a mixed heritage, we've

just tried to develop that appreciation

909

: 00:44:28

for other children of other heritage.

910

: 00:44:30

So there are not a lot of kids.

911

: 00:44:33

In our school district that are Filipino

heritage, but there are kids that are

912

: 00:44:38

Southeast Indian, or there are kids

that are, um, from the Caribbean, or

913

: 00:44:42

there are kids from South America.

914

: 00:44:44

So those are the kids that she's

tended to gravitate towards

915

: 00:44:47

and become friendly with.

916

: 00:44:49

Because we've taught her this just

to appreciate, look, she's different.

917

: 00:44:52

If people are going to view her

as different, how do you think

918

: 00:44:54

all these other children feel that

may be exposed to the same things?

919

: 00:44:57

So she's gravitated towards that, those

social groups and those social structures.

920

: 00:45:03

Um, and we've looked for opportunities to

get her more involved in things like that.

921

: 00:45:06

Originally we had her on a swim team

where she was the only non Hispanic

922

: 00:45:10

kid, because we wanted to give her a

different, you know, set of exposure.

923

: 00:45:14

Then if she had joined the team here,

where it would have been all white kids.

924

: 00:45:18

So for us, it's just about expanding

our horizons, make sure that she's

925

: 00:45:21

very worldly and has just a greater

appreciation for other people's cultures

926

: 00:45:25

and not worry so much whether or not

other people have appreciation for hers.

927

: 00:45:30

Tony Tidbit: Robert.

928

: 00:45:31

Robert Townes: So one of the things

that, uh, my children are blessed with

929

: 00:45:36

is that, uh, we, we joke about it, but

especially my wife's side of the family,

930

: 00:45:39

they joke and say that we have like

a United Nations kind of feel there,

931

: 00:45:42

because we not only have the racial Um,

you know, uh, diversity in the family,

932

: 00:45:47

but we also have religious diversity.

933

: 00:45:49

Um, you know, so we have,

uh, Jewish in our family, so

934

: 00:45:54

celebrate some Jewish holidays.

935

: 00:45:55

Um, you know, there, there is a sexual

orientation change in difference.

936

: 00:46:00

So we, we, we celebrate everybody.

937

: 00:46:02

So that's, that's one thing.

938

: 00:46:04

But one of the things for me, particularly

as it relates to black and white,

939

: 00:46:07

is I really work with my children on

educating them about their history first.

940

: 00:46:12

Because those who don't learn from

their history are doomed to repeat it.

941

: 00:46:15

And then also want to instill a confidence

in them that they can carry themselves

942

: 00:46:19

in this world with their head held high.

943

: 00:46:21

That they have nothing to be ashamed

about, they have nothing to answer

944

: 00:46:24

to, they are their own people.

945

: 00:46:26

Um, and so that they have the tools and a

toolkit to deal with a lot of situations.

946

: 00:46:31

As a parent, my job is to kind

of help them be ready to go out

947

: 00:46:35

into the world when I'm no longer

standing around them or near them.

948

: 00:46:38

Tony Tidbit: Right.

949

: 00:46:38

Robert Townes: And so I'm trying

to work with them to get them to

950

: 00:46:41

fill up that toolkit with all the

tools they need to be able to handle

951

: 00:46:44

a lot of different situations.

952

: 00:46:46

So some of it is that street awareness

and you understand where you are

953

: 00:46:49

and the context of your being in

the relation to everybody else.

954

: 00:46:53

Um, trying to get them to understand

in their lives, um, how to connect with

955

: 00:46:57

people, you know, because sometimes

you can disarm people, but you connect

956

: 00:47:01

on a one on one basis with them.

957

: 00:47:02

Like, just try, like I said, trying

to give them many different things in

958

: 00:47:05

their toolkit To be able to go about

dealing with the world because I know

959

: 00:47:09

at a certain point in their lives,

they're going to be on their own,

960

: 00:47:12

whether they're away at college or

beyond, and they're going to have to

961

: 00:47:15

deal with the world on its terms, but

they have to be able to bring themselves

962

: 00:47:19

to that point and, and, and thrive.

963

: 00:47:21

And that's what I'm

trying to get them to do.

964

: 00:47:23

Tony Tidbit: What are some of the,

so, so when it comes to your family,

965

: 00:47:27

it comes to your, your marriage.

966

: 00:47:30

What is some of the things that you

guys, you know, you talked about your

967

: 00:47:33

kids and specifically you, and you

all said it, people try to put them

968

: 00:47:37

in a box, they only can be one part of

their ethnicity versus the entire part.

969

: 00:47:43

What's some of the outrageous things

that you guys deal with when it comes

970

: 00:47:47

to interracial marriage and family?

971

: 00:47:50

Speaker 6: So for me, I say,

especially, you know, especially in

972

: 00:47:55

this day and age, it's my daughter.

973

: 00:47:59

And you know, I know hearing the other

episode of the podcast, your daughter's

974

: 00:48:03

kind of deal with the same thing.

975

: 00:48:05

It's, it's the, it's the

dealing with the hair.

976

: 00:48:07

People wanting to touch the hair, wanting

to do a lot of things, trying to get

977

: 00:48:10

my daughter, particularly, you know,

trying to work with her to deal with the

978

: 00:48:14

world, because I am not a black woman.

979

: 00:48:18

Um, and I don't have that

intersectionality where I can understand

980

: 00:48:22

what the world is like for a black woman.

981

: 00:48:24

And I'm very blessed and very thankful

that my mom and my sister and others

982

: 00:48:28

in my family stepped forward to help

my daughter when those issues come up

983

: 00:48:31

where there are things that she needs

to deal with outside of things that I

984

: 00:48:35

can give her and that she has resources

there to be able to help her, you know,

985

: 00:48:38

because It is strange for somebody in my

mind because nobody ever does it to me.

986

: 00:48:42

They just walk up and

stop touching my hair.

987

: 00:48:44

If somebody comes up and

starts touching my hair or like

988

: 00:48:46

they're, Oh, it's time to fight.

989

: 00:48:47

What are we doing?

990

: 00:48:48

Touching me like that.

991

: 00:48:49

Right.

992

: 00:48:49

But women are supposed to take

that and it's supposed to be fine.

993

: 00:48:52

Right.

994

: 00:48:52

It's not

995

: 00:48:56

Brian Stern: for me.

996

: 00:48:58

That's a difficult question.

997

: 00:48:59

Okay.

998

: 00:48:59

Shawn Norville: Yeah.

999

: 00:49:00

No, go ahead, Brian.

: 1000

00:49:02,375 --> 00:49:03,425

Tony Tidbit: You said

it's a difficult question.

: 1001

00:49:03,425 --> 00:49:03,575

Go ahead.

: 1002

00:49:04,575 --> 00:49:06,915

Brian Stern: I do think it's a

difficult question because I, it's

: 1003

00:49:06,915 --> 00:49:11,335

hard for me to categorize things

as, as outrageous after 16 years.

: 1004

00:49:11,394 --> 00:49:16,335

Um, but, uh, I, I, I think One of the

things that, that has always shocked me

: 1005

00:49:16,335 --> 00:49:21,635

a little bit is just the expectation that

our relationship must be more challenging

: 1006

00:49:21,635 --> 00:49:23,205

than anyone else's relationship.

: 1007

00:49:24,415 --> 00:49:25,335

And I don't think it is.

: 1008

00:49:25,545 --> 00:49:25,895

Right.

: 1009

00:49:26,325 --> 00:49:28,965

You know, we deal with the same things

that any couple would deal with.

: 1010

00:49:28,965 --> 00:49:32,335

We fight over the same stupid

things that people fight over.

: 1011

00:49:32,345 --> 00:49:35,435

We agree on, you know, the same

goofy things that people agree on.

: 1012

00:49:35,755 --> 00:49:38,725

We deal with, you know, a lot of

the similar things with children.

: 1013

00:49:38,745 --> 00:49:44,980

And I just don't think that it's as, you

know, extreme as a lot of people think.

: 1014

00:49:45,060 --> 00:49:48,680

And I think this, that expectation, like

I know, you know, my parents are very

: 1015

00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,960

open, they were very accepting of my

wife when we were dating, but I think

: 1016

00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,239

they thought that there was going to

be more tension in our relationship.

: 1017

00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,909

And I think that a lot of people, a

lot of my friends thought there would

: 1018

00:49:58,930 --> 00:50:01,519

be more tension in the relationship

because of the ethnic difference.

: 1019

00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,280

And I just don't think it

lives up to their expectations.

: 1020

00:50:06,540 --> 00:50:10,780

It really hasn't been, you know,

that challenging for us, one to

: 1021

00:50:10,780 --> 00:50:12,300

one relating because of race.

: 1022

00:50:12,330 --> 00:50:12,960

It really hasn't been.

: 1023

00:50:13,270 --> 00:50:13,630

Tony Tidbit: Right.

: 1024

00:50:14,930 --> 00:50:15,280

Shawn

: 1025

00:50:16,510 --> 00:50:20,019

Shawn Norville: Uh, for, for, from

a marriage standpoint, it's, um, I

: 1026

00:50:20,019 --> 00:50:24,260

want to say, I don't know if it's

died down or more just I'm now,

: 1027

00:50:24,585 --> 00:50:26,065

unaware of it or don't care anymore.

: 1028

00:50:26,065 --> 00:50:29,435

And so I'm, I'm less sensitive to

it or less cognizant of it where,

: 1029

00:50:29,785 --> 00:50:33,635

you know, you would be stared at for

long periods of time on a train ride

: 1030

00:50:33,645 --> 00:50:35,595

from like the time you get on the

train till you get off the train.

: 1031

00:50:35,755 --> 00:50:39,424

Um, you know, just don't know what

it is, but it's just outraged.

: 1032

00:50:39,425 --> 00:50:41,355

Like you're going to stare

at me for 20 minutes.

: 1033

00:50:41,365 --> 00:50:44,535

That's very weird and awkward.

: 1034

00:50:44,535 --> 00:50:44,790

Right.

: 1035

00:50:44,790 --> 00:50:47,425

So, you know, those are some of the

things that happened earlier on.

: 1036

00:50:47,455 --> 00:50:51,174

But as we got older, um, I guess life

changes, you put yourself in certain

: 1037

00:50:52,590 --> 00:50:55,380

You are, um, more comfortable, I guess.

: 1038

00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:57,580

Um, so things like that

don't happen as much.

: 1039

00:50:57,610 --> 00:51:01,590

But, um, from a kid's perspective,

I'm dealing with a family perspective.

: 1040

00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,799

Um, just the things that kids are saying,

because they're curious sometimes,

: 1041

00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,579

and they're not being exposed to

different people or different cultures.

: 1042

00:51:10,940 --> 00:51:13,240

So they have these questions, which

are obviously really innocent,

: 1043

00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:17,270

but they come from a place of

just lack of exposure and, um.

: 1044

00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,030

I wouldn't say they're outrageous.

: 1045

00:51:19,060 --> 00:51:24,110

They're just naive, you know, and, uh,

but what I do sense is that my kids

: 1046

00:51:24,110 --> 00:51:25,460

don't ask the same questions back.

: 1047

00:51:25,780 --> 00:51:29,640

Um, and that's the point that I don't,

I'm still trying to figure out in

: 1048

00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:30,739

real time, to be honest with you.

: 1049

00:51:31,030 --> 00:51:31,470

Tony Tidbit: Right.

: 1050

00:51:32,020 --> 00:51:32,590

So I got to

: 1051

00:51:32,590 --> 00:51:32,790

say,

: 1052

00:51:32,819 --> 00:51:35,210

Robert Townes: Tony, Tony,

let me jump in on that.

: 1053

00:51:35,459 --> 00:51:35,990

Tony Tidbit: Go ahead, Robert.

: 1054

00:51:36,030 --> 00:51:39,260

Robert Townes: So one of the things

is also a basis of comparison.

: 1055

00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,220

Like what we go through in our

lives with our marriages and with

: 1056

00:51:42,220 --> 00:51:43,840

our children is kind of our normal.

: 1057

00:51:44,265 --> 00:51:48,505

So, the word outrageous is a little bit

different because it's just normal for us.

: 1058

00:51:48,695 --> 00:51:49,145

Correct.

: 1059

00:51:49,145 --> 00:51:52,705

The issue is when you have a basis of

comparison to somebody else's experience

: 1060

00:51:52,735 --> 00:51:53,835

and then you can see something different.

: 1061

00:51:54,194 --> 00:51:57,905

So, for instance, you know, if I were

to find out, for instance, that my

: 1062

00:51:57,905 --> 00:52:00,805

wife and I are trying to buy a house

in a certain neighborhood, and if

: 1063

00:52:00,845 --> 00:52:04,835

I'm the person who is the lead on the

conversation, I get, you know, mortgage

: 1064

00:52:04,894 --> 00:52:07,065

rate at a certain level, exactly.

: 1065

00:52:07,195 --> 00:52:10,025

She does it separately, or

she takes pictures of me out

: 1066

00:52:10,025 --> 00:52:11,915

of the, the, the, the house.

: 1067

00:52:12,304 --> 00:52:14,595

Then all of a sudden it's a totally

different conversation about

: 1068

00:52:14,735 --> 00:52:18,314

how tired exactly those kinds of

things would be really outrageous.

: 1069

00:52:18,314 --> 00:52:19,454

That hasn't happened to us.

: 1070

00:52:19,850 --> 00:52:22,510

In particular, what I'm saying, if

we had that basis of comparison,

: 1071

00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:26,060

then we could realize how out of

whack things may actually be for us.

: 1072

00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:27,020

And we're just not aware.

: 1073

00:52:27,390 --> 00:52:30,600

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, so and that's where

I was going to because yeah, I mean at

: 1074

00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,749

the end of the day when I say I'm talking

about this stuff That's yes, we deal

: 1075

00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:39,970

with but yeah other other people don't

so I can give you a million exam Because

: 1076

00:52:39,980 --> 00:52:44,020

I was just about to say maybe me and my

family are the only ones right because

: 1077

00:52:44,260 --> 00:52:48,760

my daughter's told my wife one time You

know every time daddy goes to the store.

: 1078

00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,300

They were like four and five.

: 1079

00:52:50,530 --> 00:52:52,500

Uh, they, he gets followed.

: 1080

00:52:52,730 --> 00:52:53,380

Okay.

: 1081

00:52:53,420 --> 00:52:56,400

And I didn't even know

my daughters said this.

: 1082

00:52:56,620 --> 00:52:56,960

All right.

: 1083

00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,380

At four and five, they always

follow him in the store.

: 1084

00:52:59,650 --> 00:53:00,200

Okay.

: 1085

00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:06,439

So I can give you a million examples

of stuff that we dealt with, right?

: 1086

00:53:06,450 --> 00:53:07,929

That, yeah, we have calluses.

: 1087

00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:13,195

My wife, she's When we were on vacation

and girls were one and two or two and

: 1088

00:53:13,195 --> 00:53:16,945

three and, and white women would come

up to her and say, are they your kids?

: 1089

00:53:17,075 --> 00:53:17,955

Are they yours?

: 1090

00:53:17,984 --> 00:53:20,975

You know, and be very sarcastic and nasty.

: 1091

00:53:21,345 --> 00:53:21,825

Okay.

: 1092

00:53:21,865 --> 00:53:25,765

So I'm just telling you, maybe

because we, I, and again, like

: 1093

00:53:25,765 --> 00:53:26,964

I said, we build up calluses.

: 1094

00:53:26,964 --> 00:53:29,055

My wife had to build up calluses.

: 1095

00:53:29,245 --> 00:53:34,705

My wife now sees things that she never

saw before, especially since we had kids.

: 1096

00:53:34,835 --> 00:53:35,355

Okay.

: 1097

00:53:35,355 --> 00:53:36,715

That people say.

: 1098

00:53:37,035 --> 00:53:41,645

Or they say, they say slight, so they

do microaggressions that she wouldn't

: 1099

00:53:41,645 --> 00:53:45,225

even know what a microaggression

was before until we had kids, right?

: 1100

00:53:45,425 --> 00:53:48,365

So that's what I mean about outrageous.

: 1101

00:53:48,465 --> 00:53:53,855

Some of the things that people do or say,

um, that you wouldn't get in a typical,

: 1102

00:53:54,044 --> 00:53:57,334

regular, uh, equal racial relationship.

: 1103

00:53:57,954 --> 00:54:01,415

Robert Townes: And so when I say like

putting, building a toolkit for the kids.

: 1104

00:54:01,830 --> 00:54:05,150

Because now that's, like I said, that's,

that's my life, they're my world,

: 1105

00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:08,690

and trying to get them to be ready

to deal with those microaggressions.

: 1106

00:54:09,350 --> 00:54:13,509

Get them to be able to deal with,

you know, not overt aggression,

: 1107

00:54:14,130 --> 00:54:17,029

and how that might happen, and

from different people as well.

: 1108

00:54:17,420 --> 00:54:20,530

You know, so, you know, I, I know we

always, a lot of times we talk about

: 1109

00:54:20,530 --> 00:54:23,940

race, you start talking about, um,

dealing with police and other, other,

: 1110

00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:27,950

you know, uh, other sources of authority,

but how to deal with those situations.

: 1111

00:54:28,535 --> 00:54:32,485

Like how the idea is to come back home,

you know, and not to say something

: 1112

00:54:32,485 --> 00:54:35,785

or do something that is going to

aggravate, you know, so let's have

: 1113

00:54:35,785 --> 00:54:39,314

some deescalation strategies if you

need to have those kind of things, you

: 1114

00:54:39,314 --> 00:54:43,465

know, I want my Children to understand

the world a little bit differently.

: 1115

00:54:43,535 --> 00:54:45,754

I tell my son all the time, for

instance, and he mentioned this on

: 1116

00:54:45,754 --> 00:54:50,805

the podcast that I told him that

when he is with a group of a racially

: 1117

00:54:50,805 --> 00:54:55,505

diverse group of people and something

goes down and it goes a little south.

: 1118

00:54:55,940 --> 00:54:58,200

To remove himself from the

situation because when the police

: 1119

00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,980

come, they come to him first,

: 1120

00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,400

Tony Tidbit: right?

: 1121

00:55:00,490 --> 00:55:04,580

Robert Townes: You know, as a six foot

biracial, you know, 16 year old, he is

: 1122

00:55:04,610 --> 00:55:08,470

going to be the one they ask first or

attack or grab or do whatever first.

: 1123

00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:12,040

So I'm trying to tell him to be smart,

to be aware of what's happening.

: 1124

00:55:12,170 --> 00:55:15,160

And if things are going the wrong

way to remove yourself from those

: 1125

00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,630

situations so that you are not

caught up in somebody else's mess,

: 1126

00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:19,090

Speaker 4: right?

: 1127

00:55:19,270 --> 00:55:21,150

Robert Townes: Uh, you know, so there

are a lot of things that are happening,

: 1128

00:55:21,150 --> 00:55:25,850

but as I said, it is basically now,

I'm moving on to making sure that my

: 1129

00:55:25,860 --> 00:55:30,040

kids have the tools to deal with those

microaggressions or overt aggressions

: 1130

00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,380

or whatever because I want them to

be able to thrive in this world.

: 1131

00:55:33,759 --> 00:55:34,150

Tony Tidbit: Got it.

: 1132

00:55:35,069 --> 00:55:36,660

So guys, final thoughts.

: 1133

00:55:36,779 --> 00:55:38,130

I want to get from you.

: 1134

00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:39,360

What's your final thoughts?

: 1135

00:55:39,410 --> 00:55:44,949

What do you want the audience to

know about interracial marriage?

: 1136

00:55:44,980 --> 00:55:46,510

57 years.

: 1137

00:55:46,835 --> 00:55:48,945

After Loving v.

: 1138

00:55:48,945 --> 00:55:55,345

Virginia, Supreme Court, um,

makes interracial marriage legal.

: 1139

00:55:55,605 --> 00:55:56,505

Brian, I'll start with you.

: 1140

00:55:57,455 --> 00:55:59,525

Brian Stern: Well, I think the

first thing is to realize that

: 1141

00:55:59,565 --> 00:56:01,875

57 years is just not a long time.

: 1142

00:56:02,695 --> 00:56:03,455

It really isn't.

: 1143

00:56:03,625 --> 00:56:09,045

And yes, we've come a long way, and I,

um, I worry, you know, just based on

: 1144

00:56:09,045 --> 00:56:14,335

what we're seeing today politically and

otherwise that, uh, you know, 57 years is

: 1145

00:56:14,335 --> 00:56:19,425

going to feel a lot closer than it even

is, um, so I'm very worried about that.

: 1146

00:56:19,425 --> 00:56:21,555

And I think, you know,

people need to talk about it.

: 1147

00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,840

People need to bring it up,

bring it to the forefront.

: 1148

00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,320

Don't be afraid to have

conversations about it.

: 1149

00:56:26,820 --> 00:56:31,120

Um, the other thing, my, my parting

thought is, my goodness, I have learned

: 1150

00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,830

so much from Robert and Shawn today.

: 1151

00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:36,099

I am just, I'm so thankful that

I got to be a part of this,

: 1152

00:56:36,429 --> 00:56:37,620

just hearing your perspectives.

: 1153

00:56:37,689 --> 00:56:39,410

I'm coming away so much wiser.

: 1154

00:56:39,810 --> 00:56:42,210

So I, I, I'm just so

thankful I was part of this.

: 1155

00:56:43,780 --> 00:56:44,560

Tony Tidbit: It's awesome, buddy.

: 1156

00:56:44,690 --> 00:56:46,380

And, and let's be fair though, too.

: 1157

00:56:46,955 --> 00:56:48,815

You brought a lot of wisdom as well.

: 1158

00:56:49,805 --> 00:56:50,365

Okay.

: 1159

00:56:50,365 --> 00:56:53,785

You, you definitely threw some nuggets

out there that we all can learn from.

: 1160

00:56:54,085 --> 00:56:55,645

So I really appreciate that.

: 1161

00:56:55,685 --> 00:56:56,075

Shawn.

: 1162

00:56:57,354 --> 00:56:57,714

Shawn Norville: Yeah.

: 1163

00:56:57,765 --> 00:56:59,274

Um, appreciate that, Brian.

: 1164

00:56:59,275 --> 00:57:01,925

Like I said, I'm, I appreciated

your, your, your viewpoint.

: 1165

00:57:01,925 --> 00:57:03,494

It's a viewpoint we don't hear too often.

: 1166

00:57:03,804 --> 00:57:10,114

Um, we'd love to hear more of that, but

for me, ah, what do I want people to know?

: 1167

00:57:10,154 --> 00:57:16,300

Uh, You know, the funny thing is,

um, relationships, family, um, kids,

: 1168

00:57:16,550 --> 00:57:19,970

wives, like, it's all hard, like,

life is generally not the easiest

: 1169

00:57:19,970 --> 00:57:27,180

thing ever, um, but, um, it's not

about being black, white, Asian, you

: 1170

00:57:27,180 --> 00:57:31,420

know, uh, Latinx, whatever it is,

uh, it's about being a person first.

: 1171

00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:35,960

Um, and I think for me, with all the

things that are happening in the past

: 1172

00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,100

few years politically, and you know,

what's been happening to divide in the

: 1173

00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:42,400

country, what we don't see statistically,

or what people keep forgetting is that

: 1174

00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,959

the integration of culturals and races

are exponentially happening as well.

: 1175

00:57:48,310 --> 00:57:53,019

Um, so there's going to be, the majority

is going to be the minority soon.

: 1176

00:57:53,100 --> 00:57:57,400

Um, and I, I want to say that

I have a tremendous amount of

: 1177

00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,030

faith in the children today.

: 1178

00:57:59,460 --> 00:58:02,950

You know, uh, Robert's Children and

Brian's Children and Tony's Children

: 1179

00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,190

because your children are older than mine.

: 1180

00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,680

I have a tremendous amount of

faith in how they're moving

: 1181

00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:07,650

and maneuvering in the world.

: 1182

00:58:07,940 --> 00:58:09,659

I'm so hopeful, right?

: 1183

00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:13,250

And I believe that they're going to do the

right things and make the right choices.

: 1184

00:58:13,609 --> 00:58:16,839

I just don't want them to be impacted

by the things that we do today.

: 1185

00:58:17,219 --> 00:58:20,009

Um, so what I want to leave here in

this conversation is that Robert's

: 1186

00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,840

There is a lot of hope later, right?

: 1187

00:58:22,940 --> 00:58:27,700

Let's just not mess it up for them

to not have a runway to take off.

: 1188

00:58:28,030 --> 00:58:31,610

Um, you know, and we have to

understand that we are people first.

: 1189

00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:35,180

We have to love one another, no matter

who, what ilk or creed you're from.

: 1190

00:58:35,330 --> 00:58:36,429

And always start there.

: 1191

00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:37,860

Tony Tidbit: Love it.

: 1192

00:58:38,009 --> 00:58:38,429

I love

: 1193

00:58:38,429 --> 00:58:38,959

it, my brother.

: 1194

00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:39,990

Thank you, Robert.

: 1195

00:58:40,099 --> 00:58:41,050

Close us out, buddy.

: 1196

00:58:41,490 --> 00:58:41,880

Robert Townes: All right.

: 1197

00:58:41,890 --> 00:58:44,940

So Tony, first of all, thank you

for the platform, Shawn and Brian.

: 1198

00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:45,810

Thank you for sharing.

: 1199

00:58:45,810 --> 00:58:48,230

I really, really do

appreciate the conversation.

: 1200

00:58:48,580 --> 00:58:53,425

Um, So for me, my parting shot

is really around not taking for

: 1201

00:58:53,425 --> 00:58:55,275

granted the progress that was made.

: 1202

00:58:55,385 --> 00:59:00,234

Um, I know that especially in this

political and judicial climate, things

: 1203

00:59:00,235 --> 00:59:05,745

are some in some cases rolling backwards

and we can't allow that to happen because

: 1204

00:59:05,934 --> 00:59:10,124

our Children and our Children's Children

and everybody else moving forward, um,

: 1205

00:59:10,134 --> 00:59:15,484

will be impacted if we allow progress to

roll backwards and we don't want that.

: 1206

00:59:16,030 --> 00:59:19,860

As far as our families are concerned, our

families are loving units and as, as Shawn

: 1207

00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:24,120

is saying, you know, we are certainly a

melting pot in this country and there's

: 1208

00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,099

a lot of diversity and that's a strength

and we have to make sure that we uphold

: 1209

00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:33,769

that strength for everybody, you know,

and make sure that, um, everybody, our

: 1210

00:59:33,769 --> 00:59:38,550

children in particular have the tool kits

and tools ready so that they can go out

: 1211

00:59:38,550 --> 00:59:42,720

and deal with the world and really make

sure that they have a choice and a voice

: 1212

00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,300

in how we do things as we move forward.

: 1213

00:59:44,865 --> 00:59:48,085

That they need their platforms to

be able to speak on these things, to

: 1214

00:59:48,085 --> 00:59:52,015

talk to each other, to recognize our

differences, celebrate them, and to

: 1215

00:59:52,025 --> 00:59:57,325

also not allow them to be caught up.

: 1216

00:59:57,915 --> 01:00:02,550

in this political whirlwind that's

happening right now where things are

: 1217

01:00:02,550 --> 01:00:06,050

looking backwards, you know, we need

them to continue to move forward.

: 1218

01:00:07,060 --> 01:00:08,070

Tony Tidbit: Well, thank you, buddy.

: 1219

01:00:08,079 --> 01:00:13,360

And I, I, I, um, really feel,

um, by you guys coming on and

: 1220

01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:17,540

chatting about this, that it's

going to help people move forward.

: 1221

01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:18,510

Here's the kicker.

: 1222

01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:23,160

Um, and y'all kind of said it too,

that yes, it's only been 57 years

: 1223

01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:25,440

and Brian, you're 100 percent

right, which is not a long time.

: 1224

01:00:25,995 --> 01:00:34,245

However, in: 1967

percent of the country, um,

: 1225

01:00:34,685 --> 01:00:36,505

agreed with interracial marriage.

: 1226

01:00:37,555 --> 01:00:45,745

In: 2024

with interracial marriage.

: 1227

01:00:46,074 --> 01:00:51,640

So, Just to be fair, going back to what

you guys, we have made from a mindset

: 1228

01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:56,700

standpoint in terms of people approving

interracial, I believe, and I, and

: 1229

01:00:56,700 --> 01:01:01,169

Noelle can look this up, but I think

if I remember correctly, 20 percent of

: 1230

01:01:01,190 --> 01:01:03,529

all new marriages are interracial now.

: 1231

01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:04,620

Okay.

: 1232

01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:09,140

So there, and back to your point,

Shawn, I think you said it, or maybe

: 1233

01:01:09,140 --> 01:01:13,090

Robert said it that, you know, the

country is becoming way more diverse.

: 1234

01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:17,850

It's going to be the minority will be

the majority who, if you believe whatever

: 1235

01:01:17,900 --> 01:01:19,540

in 30 years, whatever the case may be.

: 1236

01:01:19,850 --> 01:01:23,089

So, and back to what

everyone said, I do agree.

: 1237

01:01:23,089 --> 01:01:27,340

I think the kids, um, we're

hopeful we have a bright future

: 1238

01:01:27,340 --> 01:01:30,609

with our kids because they're

growing up in a more diverse world.

: 1239

01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:33,830

They're more accepting, but I

think the other thing though, too.

: 1240

01:01:34,235 --> 01:01:39,675

They're more empathetic, um, of

what other kids go through and they

: 1241

01:01:39,675 --> 01:01:42,505

can see individuals versus groups.

: 1242

01:01:42,884 --> 01:01:43,564

Okay.

: 1243

01:01:43,815 --> 01:01:46,935

Which I think is a great

way where we're heading.

: 1244

01:01:47,045 --> 01:01:51,055

So number one, Brian Stern,

Shawn Norville, Robert Towns.

: 1245

01:01:51,515 --> 01:01:55,795

Thank you for coming on a Black Executive

Perspective Podcast and providing your

: 1246

01:01:55,795 --> 01:01:58,825

perspective on this difficult topic.

: 1247

01:01:59,365 --> 01:02:02,915

So now I think it's

time for Tony's Tidbit.

: 1248

01:02:03,045 --> 01:02:04,554

So today's tidbit.

: 1249

01:02:04,985 --> 01:02:11,285

It's by Maya Angelou, and it

states, love recognizes no barriers.

: 1250

01:02:11,955 --> 01:02:18,915

It jumps hurdles, leap fences,

penetrate walls to arrive at

: 1251

01:02:18,915 --> 01:02:21,904

his destination, full of hope.

: 1252

01:02:22,875 --> 01:02:27,495

And you heard that today from

Brian, Shawn, and Robert about their

: 1253

01:02:27,495 --> 01:02:33,220

relationships and how Solid they are

and how they're building their family,

: 1254

01:02:33,230 --> 01:02:36,100

not just for today, but for the future.

: 1255

01:02:36,490 --> 01:02:40,540

So more importantly, I want to thank

you for joining another episode of

: 1256

01:02:40,540 --> 01:02:42,350

Black Executive Perspective Podcast.

: 1257

01:02:42,649 --> 01:02:47,749

And I want everyone now to listen

and incorporate BEP'S called

: 1258

01:02:47,790 --> 01:02:49,799

action, which is called L.E.S.S..

: 1259

01:02:50,370 --> 01:02:52,350

L E S S.

: 1260

01:02:52,490 --> 01:02:56,140

Our goal is to decrease

racism and all the isms.

: 1261

01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,370

So we want everyone to

incorporate L.E.S.S..

: 1262

01:02:59,619 --> 01:03:01,150

L stands for learn.

: 1263

01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,250

We want you to learn about

other different cultures, other

: 1264

01:03:05,250 --> 01:03:07,599

different individuals, history.

: 1265

01:03:07,759 --> 01:03:12,320

Because by learning, you're going to

enlighten yourself and be more aware.

: 1266

01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:14,230

Open to other individuals.

: 1267

01:03:14,550 --> 01:03:16,240

E stands for Empathy.

: 1268

01:03:16,510 --> 01:03:21,140

Once you've learned, now you should

be more empathetic to your fellow

: 1269

01:03:21,140 --> 01:03:22,830

human being and what they deal with.

: 1270

01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:24,800

S stands for Share.

: 1271

01:03:25,020 --> 01:03:29,399

You should share what you learn

to your friends and family so they

: 1272

01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:30,889

can become enlightened as well.

: 1273

01:03:31,129 --> 01:03:33,820

And the other S for stands for Stop.

: 1274

01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,850

It's all everybody's role

is to stop discrimination

: 1275

01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:39,520

wherever it walks in your path.

: 1276

01:03:39,770 --> 01:03:43,429

So if you're at the thanksgiving

table and grandpa says something

: 1277

01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:45,590

inappropriate You say grandpa.

: 1278

01:03:45,839 --> 01:03:47,009

We don't say that.

: 1279

01:03:47,220 --> 01:03:50,090

Okay, so if everybody

incorporates L.E.S.S.

: 1280

01:03:50,450 --> 01:03:56,435

L E S S will build a fairer A

more understanding world and

: 1281

01:03:56,585 --> 01:04:00,625

everyone will be able to see

the change that you want to see.

: 1282

01:04:01,355 --> 01:04:05,645

Follow a a Black Executive Perspective

podcast wherever you get your podcast.

: 1283

01:04:05,705 --> 01:04:11,575

And you can follow our us on our socials

of LinkedIn, X, YouTube, uh, Instagram

: 1284

01:04:11,845 --> 01:04:18,555

and Facebook @ablackexec for our

fabulous guests, Shawn Norville, Brian

: 1285

01:04:18,555 --> 01:04:25,215

Stern, Robert Towns, and our fantastic

producer who made all this happen.

: 1286

01:04:25,695 --> 01:04:26,510

Noelle Miller.

: 1287

01:04:26,910 --> 01:04:28,100

I'm Tony Tidbit.

: 1288

01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:29,550

We talked about it.

: 1289

01:04:29,670 --> 01:04:30,510

We love you.

: 1290

01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:31,480

And guess what?

: 1291

01:04:31,830 --> 01:04:32,370

We're out.

: 1292

01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,500

Speaker 4: A Black Executive Perspective.