Experiencing Life after Trauma

Welcome to a Black Executive Prospective Podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tibbet. You know, when most people think about trauma, they immediately focus on the physical wounds, often treatable with medical interventions.

However, what about historical trauma? What does that entail? And how does it impact individuals? Where does it originate? And what signs does it manifest? Furthermore, how can healing be achieved? Today, our guest, Youssef Malik Frederick, will delve into the concept of historical trauma, exploring its origins, effects,

and the importance of educating ourselves about it. Youssef Malik Frederick holds a jurors doctorate degree in law and postgraduate degree in trauma psychology. He earned his bachelor's of art in theology and history and spent his early years in the field addressing such common themes as depression, sadness, marriage and family issues, bereavement and substance abuse to name a few.

Currently Malik is finishing up his PhD in trauma psychology, where he focuses on multicultural psychology, historical trauma, and resilience, intergenerational trauma as well. Malik is married with a blended family and currently resides in New Jersey. Malik Frederick, welcome to a Black Executive Perspective, my brother.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 02:22

Thank you, Tony. Man, you make me sound like I'm a pretty decent guy. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. I'm looking forward for my wife. She generally tunes into you anyway. This is a family event for us. And when she hears this introduction, she's going to have to take me out to dinner because you're making me look good. Thank you.

AA (: 02:28

Hahaha.

Chris P. (: 02:29

and there it is now.

AA (: 02:48

So this right here will back you up when you've been telling her you've been the man all along. Right now, you have something on the record that proves that, huh?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 02:52

Let's say this

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 02:57

Yeah, this will make me the man Pots and Pan.

Chris P. (: 03:01

Hehehehe.

AA (: 03:05

Chris?

Chris P. (: 03:06

Hey, you know what? It's interesting for the people here I've been able to be in the presence of Malik before and what I Want to let you guys know is It has to be one of the most humble individuals now like it's the great thing about us and our people is sometimes you get around people and they just themselves genuinely and you don't realize this brother got everything but a Heisman Trophy and a Navy SEALs Golden Glove Championship and you know

And when you get the chance to get exposed to him, you realize he can really break things down because I had no idea until I got this rundown that he has so many letters behind his name and notches on his belt. And that just makes me more excited because I always thought he was a great person, a great speaker, a standup brother before I knew that he had all these universities behind him, you know what I'm saying, going with him. So that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. And I'm glad to be in your presence again.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 04:01

Oh my God, fellas, the check is in the mail for both of you. Thank you. Thank you so much. But listen, before we get into all the accolades, and please continue as the show goes on, Tony, I've got a bone to pick with you. In fact, you...

Chris P. (: 04:03

Hahaha!

AA (: 04:04

Hehehehehe

Chris P. (: 04:12

Absolutely.

AA (: 04:17

Well, hold on one second, buddy. I know Chris was supposed to go there. So let's stop right here, right? Just stop and let's pick it back up. So, Chris, bro, you have The Running Show in front of you? OK. Yeah, yeah, let's get to your back. Let's get to your family stuff first, Malik. And then we have that on The Running Show. Trust me. That's a good teaser. OK, we have that on The Running Show, right? Trust me, brother. I ain't forget you. I'm ready to go to the woodshed.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 04:24

Thank you.

Chris P. (: 04:27

I do, I got to run a show, so I was gonna get to the where was he from background part of it. Okay, okay. Okay, okay.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 04:36

Oh my goodness. You got it.

Chris P. (: 04:37

Okay, okay, cool. Cool. All right, cool. All right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 04:44

Ha ha.

AA (: 04:47

All right. Let's restart. Let's restart. Okay. So one, two, three.

Chris P. (: 04:47

So all that, so let me get this. Okay, cool, cool.

Chris P. (: 04:55

So before we get too deep into other things, just give me a little more about where you currently are. Tell me a more about your family, your background, things of that nature.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 05:06

Well, currently I am in Princeton, New Jersey, where I live with my wife and all the kids are out the house, thank God. But I am originally from the Caribbean. My family is from Trinidad and Tobago and migrated to the land of opportunity, to New York.

early on in my childhood. So my early education was in New York. My upbringing was in Queens, New York. And my late teenage years, college and so forth was actually down south. I went to school in Huntsville, Alabama. So left New York, went to Alabama.

Went to law school in Atlanta, lived in Atlanta for quite some time and back up here in the Northeast. This is where I'm from. I love it here. I can't do no winters, so I've got to be in a place that snows.

AA (: 06:22

Got it, got it. And look, buddy, that's awesome, right? You know, and you, although you're international, you are in New York through and through, okay? I mean, I can't even get you to come to Connecticut, okay? The dude's like, no, Tony, you know what I'm saying? You gotta come to the city. I'm in Jersey, but I'll meet you in the city, but I ain't coming to Connecticut, all right? Which I love. But let me ask you this, my brother.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 06:37

Yeah, guilty, guilty.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 06:45

Okay.

AA (: 06:49

And you have a very accomplished background, right? And we're going to dive, you know, we touch the surface on what you're doing, what your accomplishments are, and we're going to dive into in terms of what you want to talk about today. But the question I have for you is, you know, why were you looking, I know you say it's a family event. I know you guys listen, your wife listens a lot. But why did you want to come on the Black Executive Perspective podcast?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 07:13

Well, number one, it's the only show of its kind that I'm aware of on the airwaves. The ratings are triple A plus. There's a wide audience. And Tony, I knew you when you first got started. So these, you know, now you big time and the show has gone viral and all of that.

Chris P. (: 07:34

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Chris P. (: 07:40

Thank you.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 07:43

But I knew you when you were an executive and still are on the job and you would hold these forums at work in a corporate atmosphere. I've been a fan since then. I'm still a fan. I think that this dialogue is needed in the country, in the community.

AA (: 07:54

Mm -hmm.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 08:13

at a very community, neighborhood level, because the conversation has to get going, right? In order to expand understanding and to illuminate misunderstandings and clarify some things, we need to have honest conversations. And one of the places where these kinds of conversations are very uncommon is probably...

AA (: 08:21

Mm -hmm.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 08:41

one of the premier places that they need to happen more. And that's within the workspace and at your level as a black executive, as a person of color, and with the information that you used to bring on the job and what you continue to bring now to the public as you have expanded your audience is just great.

And I appreciate this invitation. I want to make a contribution to the overall contributions that you have made. And I think this is very necessary. And so I'm just an overall fan. I think you have really carved out a niche that is really essential. And I wish you Godspeed.

AA (: 09:34

Well, thank you, my man. I really appreciate that.

Chris P. (: 09:38

Let me congratulate you on something Malik though. Tony is notorious for saying, don't believe me, don't listen to me. Go check for yourself, go see for yourself, check the data, go to the web, go to whatever sources you need to go to, because this is the truth that I'm spitting. You are here to set the record straight on something Tony has said. So you're the inaugural rebutter to something that, so you set the trend here. So what did you have to give Tony some grief about that he had said before?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 09:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 10:03

Yeah, well, I just, I just, you know, I listened to the show, as I said, and my wife and I was listening to to a show a few weeks ago, and I don't remember the actual theme of the show. It it it was woke and and and the show was fine. The information was fine. Generally.

AA (: 10:08

right?

Chris P. (: 10:08

Mm -hmm.

AA (: 10:21

I think it was woke. What is woke and why is it a bad thing?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 10:33

And then Tony said something. He said, well, you know, when we came here as slaves, we were uneducated. And I was like, whoa, what do you mean? Like, who are you talking about? We were uneducated. I was like, we came here from Africa in around, on or about 1619. And when we landed in Jamestown, Virginia,

we certainly weren't uneducated. I mean, we left Timbuktu on the West coast of Africa. At that point, it was one of the first, the largest, most profound universities in the world, right? This country didn't even have a university when Africans came here. So we certainly were not uneducated.

we were very educated. Most of the West African slaves and slaves from that region were Muslim and they spoke Arabic and they didn't speak English. And so the fact that they didn't speak English didn't make them uneducated. And so Tony, if the three of us go to Russia today, that wouldn't make us uneducated if we land there and can't speak Russian.

Um, but so, so I was like, I was like, yo, this is not correct. So I've got a call, call out Tony on that. I mean, we didn't know English granted that, but, uh, um, what does it mean to really know English? English is not an original language anyway. It's borrowed language from, you know, English is a mutt when it comes to languages, right? It's a hodgepodge of, you know, Arabic and Latin and all these other languages. But, um,

AA (: 12:02

Buddy, you're 100 % right.

Chris P. (: 12:02

Thank you.

AA (: 12:19

Right.

Chris P. (: 12:29

it.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 12:31

We certainly didn't need to know English when we landed on these shores. So.

AA (: 12:36

So just so the audience knows, right? And I told Malik because he's being kind of soft here because he's on the show. So he's trying to show some type of respect. But the dude called me, okay, after he listened to the show. He was like, matter of fact, he texts me, can you chat? I was like, oh, okay, I can chat, yeah. And he was like, look, man, I just listened to your show. It was really educational. I mean, the stuff you were throwing out, yeah, Paul Revere could have been woke.

I mean, you were really killing it. He said, but I got to, I got to take you to task on one thing. And I'm like, okay, what we was not uneducated when we came here to the United States. And I was like, Oh, you know, and, and listen, I appreciate that. Right. That's what this is about. Although I host this, this is a platform we put together, but I never ever will say that I know all.

I'm here and I learned from, that's why our guests are very important because I've learned from you Malik in a lot of our sessions when we at work, Chris, I've learned from him and a lot of our guests that come on this show, I've learned from them. So, but more importantly, I wanted you to be able, when you stated that you wanted to come on and talk about historical trauma, I wanted you to be able to have the opportunity to take me to the woodshed publicly.

Okay. Which is not a bad thing because guess what? We're all here to learn. Right. And at the end of the day, you correcting me or providing me more insight on things like that is only going to help me become better and understanding our whole history and which is going to help me amplify it to our audience who watches or listens to us on a weekly basis.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 14:24

Well, I mean, in your defense, Tony, I think it was a Freudian slip. I mean, I don't really make a big deal about it, but I did, you know, the word uneducated was just a little too strong for me. So I had to call you.

AA (: 14:28

He does too.

Chris P. (: 14:28

Look.

AA (: 14:38

Yeah, I get it.

Chris P. (: 14:40

I was so glad you got caught up on that and not taking him to the woods on using the term came because came seems like a voluntary action as opposed to being brought right instead of being brought right so that I was like wow that's pretty good but it's interesting that you say that because Albert Einstein has a famous quote where he says if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree then the fish will die thinking it was stupid so you know the fact is you only know what you know when you know it and we did a great job of educating ourself thereafter.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 14:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

AA (: 14:51

That's fair.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 15:00

Yes. Yes.

Chris P. (: 15:10

against the will of the ecosystem. And we're here now. So I'm excited about that. But I'm excited about today with you and wondering what is trauma? Because I thought I, like Tony said, I always associated trauma with the physical acumen of a traumatic experience, the trauma ward at the hospital, things of that nature. And you are giving a perspective that I had never really leaned into. And so I just wanted to ask you on behalf of the folks, what is trauma?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 15:36

Well, trauma is really an overload of the system. It is an individual's...

Trauma is when an event occurs and an individual has become beyond his threshold of being able to cope.

AA (: 16:03

Hey, let's stop right there real quick. We're just hearing some. Is somebody scratching or something? Papers moving.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 16:05

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm hearing, but it's not, it's not over here.

AA (: 16:13

Okay, all right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 16:14

Yeah, so let me just redefine that. OK.

AA (: 16:17

Let's let's back up. Let's restart that again so then we can go right into it. So go ahead and ask your question again, Chris.

Chris P. (: 16:23

Gotcha. So my question for you today is, what is trauma? Because I classically associated trauma with a physical dynamic, thinking about the trauma ward, the hospital, things of that nature. But you give a different perspective that I hadn't really leaned into before. What is trauma?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 16:38

Well, the physical, there is a physical aspect to trauma and there is physical trauma, as you have mentioned just now, like if a person gets shot or something like that. But psychologically, we are talking about psychological and emotional trauma. Emotional trauma and psychological trauma occurs.

When an individual experiences an event that is beyond their coping capability or coping capacity, right? Their emotions have gone into overload or overdrive or survival mode. And it's the mode that it gets into biologically or psychologically or emotionally.

It goes into an autonomous kind of a protective mode. So trauma is just the culmination of an individual's psychological and emotional inability to cope with the current event that is going on. Whether that event takes the form of an ACE, which is like an early childhood experience.

Okay, like a child rape or something like that. If it takes place in terms of a sexual attack, if it takes place in terms of slavery, or there's a threat to an individual's life. In the process of psychological and emotional trauma.

One of the telltale signs within the definition that is provided by the trauma manual is that the individual believes that the threat to their life is imminent. This is not just two guys having a fight. This is someone having a gun to your head or someone

AA (: 18:56

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 19:02

you believing that there is an imminent threat of death. And that imminent threat of death precipitates an emotional response. It precipitates a psychological response. And when that response becomes overwhelming beyond an individual's ability to cope, then the result is trauma.

AA (: 19:07

Mm -hmm.

AA (: 19:28

You know, so number one, thanks for that definition, right? And one of the things though, that people struggle with when you just got finished defining what psychological trauma is, right? As an individual, and again, I can't speak to rape victims, anything like that, but a car, a traumatic car accident, something of that nature, or near a near fall, or being in an airplane and...

and all of a sudden the turbulence is too much or there's a near accident or something of that nature. Nine times out of 10, most people think that this is something that they can just brush off. Okay, that I went through it, so I just think positive about it, I'll be okay. Can you speak to a little bit? Because one of the things that we see today is that, and is becoming more prevalent now to be honest, that mental health is starting to really,

you know, ratchet up in terms of people really trying to understand it and really, you know, saying that this is a major issue. But I don't think a lot of people really, really, when it comes to mental health of these issues, really play a lot of credence to it.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 20:39

Let me give you an interesting statistic. I mentioned in the last answer, ACE. ACE is advanced or adverse childhood experiences. That is the largest bucket of trauma or causes of trauma for adults. Childhood trauma, childhood experiences.

be it you are five, six, seven years old and you are growing up in a domestic violent home, regardless of whether that violence is perpetrated on you, you are not being beat as a child. You are not, you know, back in the day, in my day, getting a weapon was just par for the course, right? That wasn't, you know, these days,

AA (: 21:33

That was regularly. Yeah, exactly.

Chris P. (: 21:36

Okay.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 21:38

It's traumatic and all that. I mean, back then, your mother used to beat your ass if you did something wrong, right?

AA (: 21:39

Yeah.

AA (: 21:45

in the store in front of everybody and nobody did nothing. All right. I was done. You finished.

Chris P. (: 21:47

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 21:48

Listen, and when your father came home, you're going to get a replay of that. But what I'm getting at is I'm not talking about corporal punishment. I'm not talking about just, you know, you getting a whippin'. I'm talking about you are growing up in a home where domestic violence is kind of the norm, right? Between your mom and dad or your stepmom and stepdad, whoever your caregivers are.

Right? You are having that experience or you are having experiences that are less desirable. For example, you know, childhood sexual abuse or something of that nature or even being bullied as a child. Right? Being neglected as a child. Right? No physicality.

Right? You are just being told, shut up. You talk too much. Go in the corner. Be quiet. These are grown folks conversation. What are you doing here? Go to your room. You know, all those kinds of things that if you're a certain age, you grew up with and never really internalized or at least you weren't aware that you were internalizing these things. All of these adverse childhood experiences.

impact adulthood and impact physical health, Chris, heart attacks, high blood pressure, anxiety, depression, all of those physical illnesses, right, can be linked back to ACEs. That is the largest buckets. Now you have other things happen as you're growing up. I mean, you know,

You experience a death, a family passing. That's very traumatic. That is a bucket in psychology that affects a large population of people. Car accidents, as you cited, Tony, is a large bucket of events that precipitates trauma in adults, but by far.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 24:17

the largest buckets are adverse childhood experiences.

AA (: 24:21

A C E. Can I share a story? Um, and, and, and this is the reason I asked the question. So, um, I fall into that bucket, the A C E bucket, right? However, I didn't know that I had psychological trauma and I was coping until I went to a therapist. Okay. About other issues to be fair, right?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 24:40

Absolutely.

AA (: 24:47

And then all of a sudden, you know, you find somebody that you really can chat with and you can open up to and you don't feel that they'll judge you and stuff to that nature, right? And then all of a sudden, this situation happened. I was nine years old and I never knew that it affected me my whole life until it came out. And it was with my mother where, you know, I was a shy kid and I...

Um, always wanted to please my mother. And this one day, um, we used to eat, which I can't stand pork and beans. I can never, I'll never eat them the rest of my life. Okay. But my mother, she, she was doing the best she could. And I asked my mother what was happening for dinner. She said pork and beans and hot dogs. And I smiled at her. I said, okay, mom. And then I went into my room and I fell out in the closet. Oh, we got pork and beans. And she ended up following me and she saw my outburst.

Chris P. (: 25:22

Ha ha ha ha ha.

AA (: 25:40

and she was upset and I'm doing the best I can, blah, blah, blah, this and that. At that, that was the last time for years I ever told somebody how I really felt about anything.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 25:52

And Tony, I want to congratulate you as not just a Black executive, but a Black executive who would make such a confession publicly. Your confession is a beautiful thing because it opens the door for therapy. It opens the door to let people know that seeking help is OK.

the African American general public, but in particular the African American males are not brought up to seek therapy, right? Therapy is almost a bad word. But a lot of us have ACEs. And let me tell you, there's a book called,

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 26:52

The Body Tells the Story, or The Body Remembers, I forgot. The Body Knows by Bessel Van Klopp, K -O -L -K. He is a premier psychiatrist up in Boston that has done tons and tons and tons and tons of research about this subject matter. And childhood trauma.

is linked in a high percentage, I'm talking about maybe 60 plus percent of this is why adults have problems. And I'm talking about not just latent problems that are hidden, that they themselves don't even realize this is why they have this reaction to this. This is why they are triggered. This is why they...

they are experiencing this. This is why they look at things this way. Because Dr. Bessel says, he says that...

The after trauma, the mind experiences life anew. You do not experience life the same way post -trauma as you do pre -trauma, right? The body remembers, the body knows, right? And these are reactions from trauma are not...

intentional reactions. They are automatic. They are independent of your intentionality. They are reactive. They are responsive. It's just how the body works. It's how the nervous system works. And this is

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 29:02

This is the very essence of the reactions of trauma. And when you think about years and centuries of not just historical, but intergenerational trauma and concurrent trauma and continuous everyday trauma and racial trauma.

and cultural trauma and discriminatory trauma, when you look at the African American and particularly the African American black man or young man, you really got to unpack all of that. And when you begin to peel back that onion, you begin to understand more why that guy is that guy.

or how that guy became that guy, or how that young lady became that young lady. And let me just stick a pin and say right away, trauma is not a black thing. It's not a white thing. Trauma is a human thing, right? Most of the studies that have been done on intergenerational trauma or historic trauma was done on the Holocaust survivors.

AA (: 30:10

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 30:27

was done on Native Americans, was done on the Israelis and the Gazans, was done on the South African population, because this is the thing, right? Tony, in your example, you are not the only one traumatized in that example. Your mom was affected too.

AA (: 30:49

No, that's so true. My mother. Exactly. No question. She carried that. She carried that, that she thought she couldn't produce for her kids. Exactly.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 30:55

Yes!

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 31:00

You have kids, we all have kids. Can you imagine walking in your daughter's bedroom and seeing that and hearing her say that, knowing the sacrifices you make as a black executive, okay? Knowing and think about Tony's mom. Think about mama, right? Who's just...

AA (: 31:28

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 31:29

doing the best she can in Detroit or wherever that situation was, right? In Detroit, back in the 60s or 70s, right? Back in the 70s, right? In the midst of the Black Power movement. Yeah, yeah, I'm just saying, well, I'm a 60s baby, my man. You know what I mean? But I'm just saying, think about her daily lived experiences.

Chris P. (: 31:33

Thank you.

AA (: 31:34

It was Detroit. It was Detroit. Yeah, it's true.

Chris P. (: 31:35

with it.

AA (: 31:40

70s, 70s.

Look, bro. I'm aging well though, but don't try to put another 10 years on me real fast. I know. I know I'm teasing. I'm teasing.

Chris P. (: 31:48

Hehehehehe hehehe he

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 31:59

And, you know, I can give you the history of pork and beans in the black community, right? Particularly the history of pork because it was the cheapest meat, still is, I believe, right? And when you go down south and you get on that chitlin circuit, I mean, we eat everything from the snout to the tail.

Chris P. (: 32:06

I'm

AA (: 32:13

Buddy, flat out, flat out.

Chris P. (: 32:14

there.

AA (: 32:27

Ha ha ha.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 32:27

on the pig, including the blood. We make blood pudding with it, right? So, so we've got a history with pork and beans, my brother.

AA (: 32:30

Yeah.

AA (: 32:35

So here's the thing though. So here's the thing. And I'm buddy, I really, I'm really enjoying this. And I want to, I want to say what I want to say that I want to back up a little bit because I want you to, you talked about cultural intergenerational. So I want you to at least define them. So everybody's on the same page of what they are and then we can move forward. But putting the pin on what happened with me and my mother, right? And here's, and what you're saying, I just want to expand on this to the audience because to be fair, I would have never talked about this years ago, right? Number one.

I didn't even know it was happening. I would always avoid talking about myself. And one of my biggest things that was a struggle was saying no. Right. Because the time I said no to my mother in my way, right. That I didn't really like that dinner that night. So, you know, I got it thrown back in my face. So immediately to your point, the physical said, you don't like that feeling. So.

You're going to avoid anything that you got to come up with that's going to give you that feeling. Right? So think about this catapult to being in corporate America in my early days or having a relationship with my girlfriend, a wife or whatever the case may be. When you can't speak and say what you really feel because of the fear of them coming back at you, how effective can you be?

How can you build a relationship? How can you be successful in an environment that they're gonna come back and tell you stuff all day long and you gotta learn how to deal with it. But if you don't know how to speak up because of something that happened back when you were nine years old and you have no clue about it until I went to therapy and flushed it out, then how do you think you feel about yourself when all these things start happening and you can't?

you know, defend yourself will really speak your mind the way that you should.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 34:34

Yeah, well, let me just say this, Tony. I gave in the definition earlier about trauma that...

Someone that's experiencing trauma has to have the element of an imminent threat of death or loss of life. And saying no to a black mother is really borderline having an imminent threat of death. It's not something that you traditionally do. You don't say no, mom. Right, you know what I mean? So.

AA (: 35:10

why I went to the back room. Exactly.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 35:13

So yeah, but yeah, the fact of the matter is that once you get emotionally shut down and your body and your system and your emotions understands that, it affects what is called your worldview, right? Because...

One of the issues with having a traumatic experience is that a traumatic experience alters your worldview. It alters how you see the world. It alters your sense of safety and your sense of who you are, right? And when you have that altering experience, psychologically and emotionally,

It's very difficult to reverse that unless you begin to really understand it in therapy. And if your therapist is culturally sensitive, then your therapist will understand what questions to ask, how to navigate your experience, and what interventions you need in order to live a more fulfilled life.

in adulthood. So I'm glad you found the right person. But all of these are illustrations of what happens to individuals, what happens to people, regardless of race, regardless of anything else. I mean, this is just a human experience. And the human experience of trauma is across the board. Now,

AA (: 36:41

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 37:08

when you interject the variable of race, then you begin to come up with other systemic problems. So the more comorbidities that you interject in a problem is the more vulnerable that person will be to being affected by that problem.

AA (: 37:21

Right.

AA (: 37:38

Let me ask you this, because we want to, I know Chris wants to chat about, he wants to play something that will speak directly to that, right? And want to get your reaction to it. But just real quick, when we say cultural trauma, what do we mean?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 37:53

Well, cultural trauma is, again, that overload of an individual system because primarily of the cultural or ethnic population that they belong to. So let's take the Holocaust, right?

It was a Jewish experience, right? And the experience occurred primarily because of their ethnicity, right? Because of who they were culturally, because of their experience with Judaism, right? So Hitler and others decided that, hey, because of who you are,

we will eliminate you and sort to eliminate them. Right? Now, when research has been done and there is a wonderful researcher called Dr. Yoshida, who's done just loads of research about intergenerational trauma and using the Jewish population and using the Holocaust and

using the effects of the Holocaust not just on the survivors, but also on two generations beyond their survivors. So the survivors' children and their children's children. And there were clear signs, empirical signs, meaning with data, with numbers, with...

AA (: 39:38

Mm.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 39:54

based on research, right? That showed that cultural trauma has traveled through time and has landed two generations later, the Native Americans and the Trail of Tears, right? And that traumatic experience at Wounded Knee, right?

that massacre that occurred, there are, Native Americans have more substance abuse issues than any other ethnicity in the United States, right? Suicide is very high, but substance abuse.

AA (: 40:36

Mm.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 40:53

is really high and substance abuse is one of the go -to's of coping with trauma. Remember, my earlier definition said that when the emotion becomes overloaded and has an inability to cope with the situation, well, alcohol, drugs, et cetera, those are coping substances, right? And, and, and,

AA (: 41:18

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 41:22

That's what happens. And it can all link back to those negative experiences because of their culture, for no other reason than because of their culture. So that's the bucket of cultural trauma.

AA (: 41:33

Right.

Chris P. (: 41:36

Let me, let me.

Let me ask you this, though, because we're not going to go as deep in this conversation with dissociative identity and things of that nature from a coping perspective. But the reality of a conditioned response, right? And so when you grow up, I've heard plenty of people, my people say, we didn't know we was poor. We didn't know this. We didn't know that until exposure expanded the expectation. Right. So great example. At one point, I was living somewhere and my mom came to visit from where we from and it was too quiet.

She couldn't sleep well, she couldn't function. It was just, it wasn't enough movement because we was on a golf course, right? I felt like we had graduated to this point, but I felt so bad that she couldn't absorb it and embrace it and enjoy it because it was not what she was conditioned to being around. It was not enough going on. How do we, is that a high product or?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 42:31

Well, that's really similar to what the experts now call FOMO with regards to kids and their phones, the fear of missing out, right? My kids, whenever they come here from New York, right, my daughter, my youngest daughter, she's like,

24 years old, she says, daddy, I can't sleep. It's just too quiet. They live in Harlem. She's like, where's the sirens at? Where's the ambulances? Where's the police? Right? But let me just say this, and this is important as a result of the question you bring up.

Chris P. (: 43:05

Mm -hmm.

Chris P. (: 43:12

Right, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 43:24

Trauma only affects, and please forgive my use of the term only, trauma affects 30 % of the people who experience the same identical event.

So 100 people experienced COVID. Only 30 of them are going to have PTSD, depression, or some other sign of trauma. OK? That's just the statistics. That's just how the bell curve works. I mean, so Tony.

AA (: 44:00

Now, why is that?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 44:08

You experience what you experienced and I may experience the same thing and it didn't affect me. And that's, those are situations where you get into a lot of sibling rivalry because you got three brothers.

AA (: 44:19

It doesn't bother you. Yeah, it doesn't bother you.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 44:32

And the other two brothers is like, man, get a hold of yourself. You like, you all corporate now, you go on the therapy and stuff. And you just, man, come on, man, we lived in the same household. Like, what the hell are you talking about? Okay. You know what I'm saying? You just, you just whitewashed up there in the, in the ivory towers in New York, man. Get a hold of yourself, brother. You know? So, so, so, so that's what you got.

Chris P. (: 44:36

That's me. That's me. That's me.

Chris P. (: 44:44

Man, yeah. Why you too good for pork and beans? Why you too good for pork and beans? Right. Right, right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

AA (: 44:46

She said the same thing to me.

AA (: 44:55

You boo -jee -doo!

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 45:02

And when you're dealing with everyday people who don't understand the intricacies, right, that three of us could experience the same event, but it will only affect one of us because that's the 30%. And both of us will be fine. That doesn't mean it didn't happen to Tony.

That doesn't mean we should cancel out his experience. Right? And this whole thing about pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. Well, I mean, 30 % of us ain't got no boots.

Right? You understand? So we're still dealing with, and this happens in the black community all the time. Y 'all stop complaining. You giving reasons why now you coming up, Yusef, with historical trauma, intergenerational trauma. My grandparents just worked hard, man. What are you talking about? Forget all that. Right? So you get into these responses.

Right? Trying to, because these are individuals trying to explain your situation. Right? And they are judging their situation and they are doing an invalid, what we say in psychology, they are doing an invalid correlation between them and you. Right? That's not how trauma works.

AA (: 46:40

Right.

AA (: 46:44

Right, right. That's excellent, my friend. I totally agree. So listen, we want to jump to some trauma that, you know, happens a lot to African -American men. OK, so we're going to play a quick little clip, let you listen to it. And then I'd love to hear your thoughts.

AA (: 48:07

So if you're not familiar, that's what happened in Memphis with Tyree Nichols when he was at a stoplight and the police pulled up behind him and then snatched him out of the car. And then, you know, all that was recorded. And that is something, you know, not, you know, not 100 percent similar. But these are things. One of the things that.

people of color deal with when we talk about those types of situations. So I'd love to hear your thoughts when we talk about trauma, right? Especially when it comes to the police. Chris and I did an episode, not to protect and serve. And we went through the history of the relationship between the police and the African -American community. And why today we still, and I'll use your term when you just got finished talking about PTSD, we still have PTSD when we see

police lights or they in our neighborhood or whatever the case may be. Can you speak a little bit to that? Well, go ahead, go ahead, Chris.

Chris P. (: 49:12

And let me just add to this before you get too deep into that, give me your impression, because I looked at your facial expression when the hyperaggression, the rage, and the fear was going on in that audio. And there are video clips that accompany that. But just in the audio, I seen the despair in your expression. Can you walk me through kind of what you were going through while you were exposed to that?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 49:12

Oh.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 49:36

I never heard that before. That was my first time hearing that. And...

Um.

This is what you call vicarious trauma, what you saw in me. What you were witnessing was secondary trauma or secondhand trauma. Okay. Clearly Mr. Nichols, is that his last name?

Chris P. (: 50:17

Yes, yes, sir.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 50:18

Mr. Nichols is the primary.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 50:24

victim of trauma here. And I'm calling him a victim because I don't think he survived the experience. Did he survive the experience? Right. So he's not a survivor. So he's a victim here. Right. So he's the primary victim. But there are other survivors of that traumatic experience. The police officers and first responders. They

Chris P. (: 50:33

That is correct. He did not.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 50:55

were traumatized or they experienced the event. And I've got to believe based on the statistics I just gave earlier that one out of three of them experienced trauma as a result of that experience that they went through. OK. The first responders.

the whoever the EMTs were or the fire people or whoever were called to the scene. These people experience, listen, COVID laid bare the vulnerability of first responders.

from suicides being committed by doctors and nurses and healthcare professionals, suicides being committed by nursing home professionals and EMS people who just couldn't take it anymore. The amount of first responders that are in therapy now as a result of COVID, only because they were experiencing

seeing so much death. So vicarious trauma, secondary trauma, secondhand trauma is a real thing. The videographer, okay, whoever was recording this and you and me who are listening to it or seeing the video or going on YouTube or seeing it in the media outlets, these, so.

A police incident is not just a police incident with that person, with that survivor. When these things go viral, these things affect the entire community, not just the African -American community, but in the entire humanity. This is why you have marches in Black Lives Matter, marches in Germany. OK?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 53:16

and Russia and Greece and Italy and all these places that are not predominantly non -black or non -white people, right? Because humans sympathize and we empathize and we feel people's hurt, right? So what you were exp...

what you were watching with me listening to that clip was just hurt, was pain, right? And that pain, a lot of times manifests itself in very adverse ways and in very negative ways with, like I said, 30 % of the people who experience it.

AA (: 54:18

Wow, buddy. I mean, thanks. And you're 100 % right. Even listening to it over and over again, you feel that pain, right? You feel, you know, and to be fair, I think Chris had talked about before where he didn't even want to, his wife said, you don't even want to watch this or because it's going to be so, you know, damning or negative to you, right? So, but that's the thing though that we carry because of these issues. And let's be fair though.

Chris P. (: 54:18

That's it.

AA (: 54:48

This happened last year in 2023, but we've been dealing with these issues for centuries, right? From lynchings to, and it's not even, and to the point where it doesn't even have to be physical. It can be just the presence of these individuals in our community or whatever the case may be that all of a sudden we become shook. Speak to that a little bit.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 54:55

Absolutely.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 55:13

Listen, every time a mother, a black mother or a mother of color warns her son to be careful, be safe, or come home, or we tell our sons, don't try to be a hero, right? Don't wear that hoodie at night. I have three sons. I tell them, do not.

I understand it's the style and all of that, man, but listen, this stuff can get you killed. Right. That's trauma. That's my trauma speaking out. I'm scared. I'm scared for my child. I'm scared for my son. That mother is scared for her child. And and and when the three of us on this show that are African -American black men,

AA (: 55:55

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 56:11

When we see the Christmas tree lights behind us, if we are honest, we tense up and we pull over and we don't make no sudden moves. We don't reach in the gov compartment all of a sudden. If it's at night, we turn the house light on in the vehicle. We make sure that we are not being shifty. Those...

AA (: 56:19

No question.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 56:41

Those are traumatic responses. Those are traumatic responses because your mind is telling you that you are in danger and you are preparing to avoid the worst case scenario. That is you not making it back home to your family. So this is, this is when you, when you have a young man who has no police records.

who is driving his car, he's going home, he works at the pizza shop, and his shift is over and he's just going home. Right? He has no guns, no drugs, no record, no nothing. But he's 21 years old and he's driving home. He's black. He sees the police lights behind him. He pulls over and...

his intention, right? His intentional mind is telling him, be calm, be calm. But as soon as he sees that officer pull up behind him and open the car door and is walking towards him, something happens to that young man. He gets out the car, he starts running.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 58:08

get shot in the back. Now, even black folk would say, well, why do you run?

Chris P. (: 58:19

Thank you.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 58:20

You know, he shouldn't have ran. Of course, white folks say he should have just listened to the officer and paid attention to the officer's instructions.

Chris P. (: 58:31

the

AA (: 58:34

Or, or he must have been doing something wrong. He was a, he was a criminal. He was high. That's, that's the go -to, right? Is that because why would the officer shoot him? All right. He had to do something wrong.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 58:37

or he must have been doing something wrong.

Chris P. (: 58:38

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 58:51

No one considers the confounding variable that that young man is trying to.

And this is the message, hopefully, of this show, that we will begin to use other variables other than the narratives that are being pushed by the talking heads on TV and radio and all these different places, these sensational...

statements, right, sound bites that come out and that we consider our humanity and we realize that, look, the Native Americans had a couple of terrible experiences and look at what they're going through. The Jewish community,

have had one major experience and a lot of microaggressive experiences, but one major, that's the Holocaust that occurred in a specific space of time and length of time. The African -American,

is so unique in his experience.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:00:28

400 years!

Now if one experience in a sliver of time can result in...

the Jews having that effect from the Holocaust or the Native Americans or any other oppressed people, what do you think 400, not just 400 years of slavery or enslavement, but, and Tony, PTSD is just an incorrect diagram.

right? PTSD doesn't apply to us because PTSD assumes as is inherent in the definition that this is a post -traumatic syndrome. This is something that happened as a result of this one event. You have PTSD. You went to Vietnam. You experienced some real bad shit.

Now you came back and every time a firecracker or you hear fireworks go out off, you are triggered. This is not a one -time experience. So PTSD, which applies to singular traumatic events and a post -traumatic reaction from that event or response from that event, that's a correct diagnosis.

AA (: 01:01:46

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:02:10

But what the Black community have is continuous stress trauma, which is kind of what the Israelis and the Gazans have since 1948 because they are just continually, it has never stopped. Right? It's like one.

Chris P. (: 01:02:34

Yeah.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:02:37

ongoing traumatic experience. You had six wars. You have several incursions. The siren on the Israeli side is going off when Hamas hurdles bombs. The sirens on the Gaza Strip is going off when Israelis respond. And it's back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Studies were done from these people.

these groups of people. And the studies show that post -traumatic syndrome disorder just doesn't apply. Because the injury is continuous and continual with the African -Americans in America. When you deal with the historic trauma, now you have to pile on on top of that.

AA (: 01:03:16

Mm.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:03:37

racial discriminatory trauma that is daily, right? From redlining to housing discrimination to job discrimination to access to healthcare discrimination to police brutality to on and on and on and on on a daily basis. Right? So now you have this young man who is in this car.

who is driving home after his shift from the pizza parlor, and he is going and the cops pull him over, right? You have a culmination of trauma building up in his lived experience. This is his lived experience, right? So he gets out and run because he blanks out.

AA (: 01:04:35

Right.

Chris P. (: 01:04:36

Thank you.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:04:36

Remember, trauma is the inability of your emotions to cope with the event. And some people experience a traumatic event and some people just faint. It's either you flee or you freeze or you faint, right? Or one of those responses. Some people just faint.

Chris P. (: 01:04:44

Hmm.

AA (: 01:05:05

Let me ask you this. Go ahead.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:05:05

Okay, dude just ran.

AA (: 01:05:09

Go ahead, Chris.

Chris P. (: 01:05:10

Let me let me state something, though, as a historian, I think that sometimes we believe that success could be the absolution of trauma. And let's just use Frederick Douglass as an example. So Frederick Douglass was being taught how to read by a woman. You know the story, right, Malik? And he was being taught by a woman that got caught. She got caught teaching him as a child. And then she was subsequently beat and raped in front of him. But because he became Frederick Douglass, that couldn't have been

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:05:26

Yes.

Chris P. (: 01:05:40

a trauma for him. But when you talked about 30 % and things of that nature and how people absorb and adjust, I still think that was a traumatic experience. Am I wrong in saying that just because he didn't materialize it as such?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:05:54

No, no, no, the definition of trauma makes it a traumatic experience. The 30 % and the 70 % does not eliminate the experience. And so when I responded to you and told you what you were looking at with me was a trauma experience, I didn't mean.

that I was traumatized or I would have a lasting traumatic response to that experience, right? I'm not gonna go out in Princeton now and start slapping white people, right? So what I'm talking about is not the experience, but the response based on the experience. So that clearly,

Chris P. (: 01:06:29

Gotcha. Gotcha.

Chris P. (: 01:06:35

I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:06:50

was a traumatic experience for Frederick Douglass. But if Frederick Douglass, and I'm just assuming that Frederick Douglass became resilient.

Chris P. (: 01:06:53

Got you.

Chris P. (: 01:07:02

Yes.

AA (: 01:07:03

We don't know, right?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:07:03

and his resilience, black people are some of the most resilient people on the planet. And it is our resilience, our stubbornness, our persistence, our drive. That is one of our biggest, that's one of our best characteristics is the fact that we are

resilient and the Black church and the Black culture has a lot to do with the very nature of our resilience by the songs we sing, by the hip hop lyrics, by our historical Negro spirituals. These are things that has taught us resilience. The Palestinian people, the Quran and their faith, right?

has inspired resilience with them. And that resilience minimizes the effects of trauma or the reaction or the responses of trauma. So while Frederick Douglass might have been resilient, now we don't know his life so intricately that when he was alone and at night, we don't know if he had nightmares about that. We don't know. We really don't know, right?

Chris P. (: 01:08:17

Right. Right.

Right.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:08:29

But from what we can see from the outside, right, we can say that he was resilient in, and I mean, the man ended up as the ambassador to the United States, right? So he clearly experienced some resilience.

Chris P. (: 01:08:43

Correct.

AA (: 01:08:43

Right.

Chris P. (: 01:08:49

It's interesting that you say that when you talked about going on a slapping tour, because I remember as a young child, my mom and my aunts talked about when they were young and they had viewed Roots on TV, Alex Haley's Roots, and how it made it difficult for them to go to school and fit in and get along because of the emotion that it evoked as a historical, you know, cinematic, you know, pictorial. And that's different. Why do you think

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:09:01

Yes, I know.

I remember.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:09:13

Yeah, peace.

Chris P. (: 01:09:17

that as people of color and just people in general, we have to understand that, as you stated, trauma is all abound, especially for us as Black males, Black Americans. It's always there. It's how you deal with it or how you internalize it that tends to create the narrative.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:09:34

Well.

It's it's it's

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:09:43

That's, that statement is really tough and I have to pause that statement. It's about how you deal with it. That's kind of an oversimplification, right? Because let's go back to Tony again. He wasn't dealing with it. Why? Because he wasn't even aware of it.

AA (: 01:10:11

Correct.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:10:14

Right? A lot of times, your reactions from traumatic experience you're not aware of.

AA (: 01:10:23

Nine times out of ten you don't know.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:10:24

This is why older men...

30, 40 years old can last week sue the parish priest where he came from.

because he had an adverse childhood experience that colored his entire life, but didn't link it together.

right? Didn't really see the connection, right? There were no 10 -year -olds suing the Catholic Church.

I mean, there might've been, but the fact is these were all adults.

Chris P. (: 01:11:12

right here.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:11:18

These were all adults. They were looking backwards to their time as children, to their time serving the church as an acolyte or whatever position or just going to catechism, you know, going for religious instruction. The fact of the matter is that a lot of traumatic experiences, number one, is not on the surface level. Trauma is described as an iceberg.

Most of the reactions and the effect and the experience is beneath the surface. Right? So that's why I don't want to just concur with that statement because that statement really doesn't incorporate the full aspects of trauma. Now, once we recognize that we have trauma or there is some experience,

AA (: 01:11:54

No question. No question.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:12:18

right? And we may not link it to a traumatic experience. But if we, because the funny thing about people that are depressed is the large majority of them wouldn't even admit that they're depressed. They're just in their room in the dark, not going out, changing habits, you know, they don't, they don't call their friends. They're just, you know what I mean?

They don't even realize that their whole modus operandi has changed. Right? You know? Yeah.

AA (: 01:12:53

So, Malik, so what, not there, but you make a great, you make an excellent point, buddy. So what, for final thoughts, what do you want to leave the audience in terms of, because you, you chatted, you took us from the beginning of trauma to all different type of levels of trauma, right? And all different types of experiences. And I know one of the things that we talked about before was that trauma, and you even spoke to it here, is not.

just about a black thing or a white thing. It's a people thing. So for final thoughts, what do you want to leave the audience when it comes to Trump?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:13:31

I want to leave the audience with the fact that we don't have to live with the adverse effects.

that there is help out here. And there are coping strategies that can be incorporated into our daily lives that can make living with trauma much more doable. But you have to seek, you can't self -medicate or try to engage in.

substance misuse, but you've got to seek professional help. You've got to talk to somebody. And for those of us that are in the professional arena, that are engaged in helping people, maybe you are a social worker or a clinical professional.

or something of that sort. You worked in the field as a counselor or something.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:14:49

Be aware of the adverse history of multiculturalism with regards to trauma. Be aware of the intergenerational nature of trauma that can, that at least the research show based on epigenetics can go for three generations. Be aware when you deal with a black man or a black woman,

or a person of color, understand that that drinking or that domestic violence or that youth that is incorrigible, just understand that that bad behavior can find its roots in trauma and not just because they're being stubborn or they don't want to listen or...

Chris P. (: 01:15:34

Yeah.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:15:46

hey, me and my wife is not getting along anymore. Those things may be the symptoms, right? But the real problem a lot of times, like the iceberg, is hidden deep under and it's your job as a clinical professional or as a mental health professional to go scuba diving and make sure you are treating the problem and not the symptoms.

AA (: 01:16:12

Buddy, I really appreciate that. This was awesome, my friend. I mean, we'd love to have you come back. No, you educated today, my brother. All right? You definitely broke it down. And, you know, I learned a lot today, to be honest. You know, even the PTSD and all those type things and three out of 10. I mean, buddy, this was awesome. And I'm pretty sure our audience was fed as well. So final question I have for you.

Chris P. (: 01:16:13

you

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:16:18

I'm like, I thought too much.

Chris P. (: 01:16:20

Oh no.

AA (: 01:16:41

How can a black executive perspective help Malik Frederick?

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:16:45

Well, the black executive perspective helps me every week. When I listen to these shows and I get educated and my cup runneth over. And so I wanna thank you. I wanna thank your technical audio guide, AA, in the background. I wanna thank Chris for his usual in -depth insights. I mean,

You guys help me every week. People, if they want to check out my website, they can go to www .traumasyke .com. that's trauma p -s -y -c dot com, all one word. And, you know, there are some blogs on there and there are some case studies that I've done from my PhD program.

There's no subscription on all that. It's just an educational site. You can go on there and if you want to leave me a note or something, I think there's a way to contact me on the site as well. So thank you so much.

AA (: 01:17:56

Buddy, you being really modest, I've been to that site. It's got really good insights and it'll definitely, especially people who are listening today who want to learn more about it, Malik breaks it down. And then obviously I'm pretty sure you're open to, if somebody wanted to reach out and chat with you, I'm pretty sure you're open to being able to do that as well.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:18:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, at this point, I mean, I don't have, you know, I work a job, so I'm not in the clinical aspect of things. I mean, I am, you know, a couple of months from my PhD, but I'm not like in the field. Maybe I'll get into that once I retire, but.

not at the moment, but always happy to help give insights and talk with people.

AA (: 01:18:47

Well, thank you, my friend. I really appreciate you appearing on the Black Executive Prospective Podcast. So I think it's time for Tony's Tidbit. So Tony's Tidbit, and we've been fed today. So the Tidbit today is by Alice. We have a, what was that? Phone is up. I'll redo it. Okay. So the Tidbit today is by Alice Miller. And it basically speaks to what our guest today, Malik Frederick, walked us through.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:18:58

So I have to do it today.

AA (: 01:19:15

An unacknowledged trauma is like a wound that never heals over and may start to bleed again at any time. So we learned that today from Malik, but we also learn to be able to be on the lookout for individuals, try to understand the root issue that they may be dealing with. You may look at their symptoms and think something different, but most likely there's a root cause that

they're dealing with. And a lot of times for all human beings, no matter what color, it can be from a traumatic experience. So again, I want to thank our guests, Malik Frederick, my Jersey man, right? I want to give thoughts to my co -host, Chris P. Reed. And then obviously the guy around the background, AA, I'm Tony Tidbit. You can follow a Black Executive Perspective podcast wherever you get your podcasts, and you can follow us on your socials.

Yusuf Malik Frederick (: 01:19:59

Jersey.

AA (: 01:20:15

at Black Exec on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and X. Tony Tidbit, love you guys a lot, and we're signing out.