ep 110. Beyond the Black Square: A Deep Dive into Corporate DEI with Tony Tidbit

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a black executive perspective look man 

they didn't get a chance to play chess

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they had to play Checker Let's talk about it 

t openly and honestly there was a lot of smart

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kids there they black executive perspective 

now my story is not unique there's thousands

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of Professionals of color who have experiences 

like mine a black executive perspective whether

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you're aware of it or not it's a topic that 

is often avoided we'll discuss race and how

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it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk 

about this topic cuz we were afraid a black

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executive perspective today diversity equity 

and inclusion de and programs are widespread

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in Corporate America but there's a problem 

they're often ineffective at creating better

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environments for employees these programs allow 

companies to check the dni box but they fail at

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their most basic objective of changing changing 

people's mindsets to be more inclusive why is it

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so hard to implement effective Dei programs 

more importantly what needs to change to

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create more inclusive workplaces in today's 

episode the black square is De working we

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will discuss these areas as well as the history 

the goal challenges the push back and possible

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solutions welcome to a black executive perspective 

podcast the space where we discuss all matters

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related to race especially race in Corporate 

America I'm your host Tony tidbit and I've

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been in Corporate America for about 35 years so 

I'm ready to sit down break down these barriers

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and address the topic of race in the workplace in 

this episode we will dive deep into the concept

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of Dei and the evolving Dei departments within 

companies in: 2020

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black Square on their social media feeds 

to show their support for the injustices

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the black community faced and made pledges to be 

more inclusive although Dei departments exist are

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companies truly implementing change has changed 

truly emerged since: 2020

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drish vice president director of diversity Equity 

inclusion at Federal Home Loan Bank of Chicago

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will help us examine the history of Dei why it's 

needed and is it still working so let me give you

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tell you a little bit about lesie as VP director 

of diversity equity and inclusion for federal

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Home Loan Bank of Chicago lesie implements and 

monitors programs that Advance diversity inclusion

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journey within the bank she is responsible 

for strategically supporting leadership on

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Dei focusing on Innovative engaging and Cutting 

Edge initiatives that D drive Dei deeper into the

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bank's organizational culture lesie has over 25 

years experience developing Innovative diversity

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volunteer and educational programs with proven 

ability to drive performance program Improvement

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quality initiatives and quantifiable results 

she has been recognized for community outreach

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and development of programs that engage support 

ission Vision and strategy in: 2019

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lesie was named as a Chicago Defender woman 

of Excellence she is currently serves as a

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board of gads Hill Center and is a mentor for the 

National Association of African-Americans in Human

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Resources prior to joining fhlbc lesie was the 

inclusion and diversity manager for Tyson Foods

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she was manager of diversity inclusion at the 

YMCA of America and the director of education at

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Chicago Urban League in addition she was educator 

at Morgan Park High School in Chicago Illinois I

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love that lesie earned her master's educational 

leadership from National Lewis University a master

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of public educa administration from University 

of Illinois at Chicago and a Bachelor of Arts in

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education from the Paul University lesie Welcome 

to a black executive perspective podcast thank you

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so much Tony I appreciate it I mean you're very 

accomplished so you know we're blessed to have

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you and especially when it comes to this topic 

because obviously this is a you know especially

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over the last three years this has been a huge 

thing there's a lot of things going on positively

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negatively so we definitely W to you know uh get 

your expert opinion what's going on I have some

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questions for you our audience is obviously they 

all work in Corporate America their companies are

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having Dei initiatives so it'll be good to hear 

from you you know how everything is going and your

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thoughts in terms of taking it to the next level 

and then what Solutions you see in terms of making

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Dei very uh uh efficient and more importantly here 

to stay but before we go to that we love to hear a

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little bit of your background tell us a little bit 

about you well um so I am born and raised Chicago

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Illinois and so you mentioned that I taught high 

school at Morgan Park High School and I'll be

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honest I graduated from that school four years 

prior and I walked right back in as a teacher so

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I love it so I I I truly believe that in community 

I believe in um serving and working with children

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and providing opportunities for them I uh did 

that for a number of years but then I went to

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go work for the Urban League and it's really 

interesting because I started at as a volunteer

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for the Chicago Urban League and I became a 

part of their young professionals auxiliary

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and so that ke helped me hone my leadership skills 

and it really got me connected into what Corporate

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America was doing in Chicago specifically because 

I was able to have a much better understanding of

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um the black experience in Corporate America what 

Young professionals were experiencing in Corporate

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America and so I went after I volunteered I went 

to go work for the Urban League for several years

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years as their director of education so my job 

was primarily to expose young people to Corporate

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America and help them understand the pathway to 

get from where they are or where they were into

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the sea suite and so we partnered with several um 

companies in the Chicago land area I was able to

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work with a number of young people and they're now 

working at Luke Capital they're doing all kinds

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of great things um they were working for John 

Rogers here in Chicago so that's been great and

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from there I went over to the Y and um I really 

that's when I kind of shifted away from just the

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black experience but more into diversity equity 

and inclusion so in that role I traveled from

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Maine to Hawaii and I helped wise all across the 

country um think about their Dei strategies and

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what they could do to incorporate um diversity 

equity and inclusion into their YMCAs so I made

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that transition into Corporate America and so 

now I work for a bank but if you had told my

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high school self that I would be working at a bank 

I would have looked at you like you had five heads

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because I thought I was going to be a teacher 

for life so well listen number one uh I love

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that background I love you know how you know your 

your journey has taking you into different things

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different areas and then more importantly um how 

you have helped so many people so I hear you when

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you said hey you thought you would just still be 

you know a Chicago teacher but more importantly

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I'm glad you're not because you've really touched 

a lot of lives in terms of what you've been able

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to do and then I I I I and we'll talk we'll dive 

into it a little bit in terms of when we when we

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uh get into the uh discussion but you know for you 

to to work at an organization and then be able to

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get a a view of the African-American experience 

and want to be able to to to understand and help

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it that is awesome and that's one of the things 

that we definitely want to dive into today to get

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more people to to uh you know uh break through the 

Clutter I should say and and be able to see some

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of the things that people of color go through 

but before we go to that you seem like a very

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talented individual okay you you like multiple 

Talent so I'm gonna this is one of this is our

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Icebreaker session okay so I'm gonna ask you this 

question all right what superpower you wish you

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had I would suppose the superpower I would want 

to have is to be able to read people's minds um

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working in the Dei space A lot of times people 

don't necessarily feel comfortable sharing their

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true opinions because they how they are how they 

think they might be perceived and so right but

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really until you can understand what people are 

thinking and why they're thinking that and what

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experiences that they've had um you really can't 

move the need and so being able to read people's

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minds is definitely something I would I would 

cherish I would you listen so I got to share this

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with you somebody asked me that question years ago 

I said the exact same thing I would love because

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I'm a deep thinker and I would love to and I 

like to you know relate to people and and be

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very empathetic and see their points of view and 

stuff and so I said I would love to read people's

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mind then I thought about it it's like could 

I handle what they think what they're thinking

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about and I don't think I could so you know you 

probably can but I don't think I could but thanks

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for sharing that with you so um who are your 

favorite people that you follow in business if

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you have any so I really enjoy following David 

Casey um to be the um Chief diversity officer

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for CVS health now he's doing some other things 

but he had I had the opportunity to meet him um

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a few years ago and how he was talking about Dei 

and especially with and as I'm sure we'll talk

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about later with social media and how CBS Health 

was really experiencing understanding communities

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through um social media and understanding 

challenges in different communities um was

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really a thoughtful perspective so he's definitely 

someone that I watch all the time awesome you know

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what I'm going to look him up because he sounds 

somebody you know um very intriguing and seems

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like he's got his foot on the pulse of what's 

going on from a Dei standpoint and then the

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last question who had the most influence in your 

life I would say my father um honestly my father

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um is black well was black um but he grew up 

he was born in: 1930

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both passed when he was very young and so um he 

raised himself from the time he was 12 years old

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in Chicago and he really just exemplified what a 

true um generous soul is and what and he always

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taught me um it's very important to teach people 

who don't know any better so he went through a lot

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of experiences in his life and because of the way 

I look um people have said strange things to me um

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not knowing that I'm um black and and so um I have 

always taken that advice that he gave me to teach

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people who don't know any better and help them 

um on their Journey so that's that's something

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that kind of followed me into my career and that's 

probably why I'm in Dei right now that is awesome

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that is awesome thank you for sharing that is 

great and yeah I'm pretty sure he's very proud

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of you as well yeah so you ready to talk about it 

I am I'm always ready to talk about Dei all right

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let's talk about it let's talk about it always 

what we try to do here on a black executive pers

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perspective podcast obviously we talk about a lot 

of topics but we W to you know first start off to

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make it real simple so my first question is give 

us some historical background when did Dei start

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you know when did it start taking off you know 

because a lot of times people think to be fair

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Dei started in 2020 okay after George Floyd right 

because that's when most people heard about Dei

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but give us a little background sure so I would 

say you know with the Civil Rights Movement um

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Dei really started then because that's when a lot 

of legislation was passed that really impacted

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people in the workplace so we had the Equal Pay 

Act of: 1963

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Act of 1964 you have the um Employment Act of 

1967 where people um who were over 40 couldn't

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get discriminated against in the workplace so 

it wasn't even then even though it's a part of

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the Civil Rights Movement it still was looking at 

women it was still talking and taking into account

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all of those other dimensions of diversity that 

aren't really um thought about so from there you

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know that's kind of when or a company started 

saying okay well we need to start doing some

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things to to put some practices into place to make 

sure that we are obeying the law essentially but

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then in the 80s you had kind of a shift and then 

there were more women coming into the workplace

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you also had a lot more um people of color coming 

into the workplace so in the 80s that's when a

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lot of those employee resource groups started 

to take place and employee resource groups are

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just generally groups of individuals that share 

a common dimension of diversity where they talk

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about their experience in the workplace they work 

with their companies to help them think through

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how they could recruit better and how they could 

make things more um uh equal for people in their

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workplace so those that launched in the 19 um 80s 

then in the: 1990

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say hey wait a second um there's a huge Market out 

there for different um people and we can't just

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Market to white people we have to be a lot more 

cognizant of you know what we're selling who we're

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selling to why we're selling these products how 

they're going to benefit these other communities

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and so in the 90s that was that shift I would 

say into really thinking about Multicultural

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um Market development and then you know we have 

e things happening so like in: 1993

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have the Family Medical Leave Act happening um 

and that allows people to now take unpaid leave

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for child care but that happened in the 90s so 

there are all these kind of legislative things

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that are happening you know you have uh in 2020 

um discrimination against lgbtq individuals is

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introduced so it's been these are topics that 

have been ongoing since right the early 60s so

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if I'm hearing you correctly 63 64 civil rights 

years ago: 1980

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want to expand to more diverse people increase 

the talent pool um so I I totally get that and

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then obviously you know other laws disa for people 

that are uh you know disabled we want to make sure

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that we include them and then you know LTB lgbtq 

we want to you know make sure that you know we're

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including everybody under the tree and making sure 

they all have an equal opportunity is that correct

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correct okay so I'm gonna I'm going to throw a 

couple of things at you and I want to get your

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take on this okay so this is an an article from 

money watch this was March of: 2021

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the headline says it could take a hundred years 

for black employees to catch up in Corporate

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America this study finds and the study was by 

a corporate counseling firm called McKenzie all

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right and what it said is is that and this was 

2021 this is after George Floyd black Americans

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represent s % of managers compared to 66% for 

white people okay 15% for asian-americans and 8%

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for Hispanics all right the percentage of black 

Americans in senior roles senior vice president

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you vice president senior vice president is like 

3.2% and then when you get up to CEO it's .8% yeah

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now one of the things I found interesting is when 

I looked at this they even broke down some of the

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different you know from the different groups 

right women uh the percentage of women who are

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CE CEOs and CFOs is the highest ever okay at in 

2021 it was 6.9% of companies were led by female

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CEOs and 15.1 had Fe female CFOs right it did 

say the number of black CFOs nearly doubl from

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2020 to 2021 which I don't know I couldn't find 

that number but black CEO stayed stagnant right

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six 682 companies in the study uh people of color 

had uh 73 73% was 73 CFO positions which was an

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all-time high at 11% so it seems like okay some 

things are working here's where I wanted to get

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to latinx and Hispanic people represent the 

largest racial and ethnic minority group in

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United States comprising of 18% of the total 

population yet found only 20% 20 Latin and

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Hispanic people served as chief executive officers 

in: 2021

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the year before while black people make up 133% of 

e were only six black CEOs in: 2021

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however asian-americans who comprise of almost 6% 

of the US population had the most representation

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at the CEO level where they were 40 during 2021 

in: 2020

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not telling you anything that you you you're not 

aware of right but based on that you know and

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just going backing up a little bit Dei it didn't 

start fully in this whole uh premise the way it

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is now in 1963 1964 but it's been around has been 

evolving okay correct So based on these numbers do

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you I mean is it you and again I don't know what 

numbers were uh and probably was was probably uh

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Neil back in the early 60s in terms of people of 

color in in Corporate America at high levels but

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just hearing those stats what's your thoughts 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that well I

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mean you're not you're not saying anything um that 

most people don't know so I'm not um but what but

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what I will say is um you know you're right I mean 

the challenge for people of color in um Corporate

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America is is great and I would say there's some 

really interesting research that came out I want

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to say in 2020 2021 from um porn fairy and it 

really talks about black and brown people of

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color in um Corporate America and why they were so 

behind and so what they found is that um people of

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color have to prove themselves more than other 

groups do in Corporate America absolutely so

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what happens is a lot of times people of color 

especially black people they have to take a lot

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more risk on than other um people in their um 

companies do in order to prove that they have

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the capability of earning those titles so what we 

what that research found is that fewer than 10% %

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of black p&l leaders I mean 10% of p&l leaders 

are black because a lot of times they're not

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taking those profit and loss um jobs they have 

more jobs that are in like um it or they're in

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human resources or those types of things and 

really when you want someone that's going to

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be a CEO you want them in that p&l uh place 

the other thing is um when black leaders take

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on those roles they're a lot of times being put in 

situations where they're not NE necessarily giving

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the given the same support or resources in order 

to be um successful and so the other thing is they

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don't have that Network that's built in for them 

necessarily that other their white counterparts

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do and so that's what makes it so much more 

challenging and then we can talk a lot about like

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sponsorship you know who knows your name how they 

know that you work you can talk a lot about bias

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you can say you know I want someone that went to 

the same school I did that had the same manager I

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did so there are a number of factors besides just 

doing these Dei programs that impact how and where

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um black leaders get into those seite positions 

so number one thank you actually you kind of I

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love you because you you know those were some 

of the questions I was going to get to and you

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got right to it so I love it right I love it so 

let me ask you this so if that's the case uh and

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and and and and correct me if I'm wrong um I know 

based on what you just got finished telling us Dei

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you know officially started in the early 6s and 

evolved but it kind of took off after the George

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Floyd thing yeah where you saw like I what like in 

my monologue where I said a lot of companies said

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hey we're going to you know restructure stuff 

we're going to make sure that our company is

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inclusive we saw companies take out ads you know 

on television uh you know you have companies you

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know have signs in their Windows we're inclusive 

we're this we're that we're this and that right

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now over the last year or so we've seen a lot 

of companies let their dni officer um go we've

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seen a lot of companies cut back on Dei right the 

numbers that I read earlier and then the the the

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the stats that you just got finished articulating 

in terms of the you know the issues why so if

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that's the ca why are these companies not really 

100% behind making a change because it seems like

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they're saying what people want they think 

people want to hear but when the numbers come

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out we don't we see if we see any progress It's 

marginal and a lot of times we see a step a step

:: 23:49

back I have to do we have enough time for you 

to answer that because you're now talking about

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my job so yeah um so no I mean I will say I 

will say um: 2020

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a reckoning there there are certain things that I 

have learned just in my experience about whether

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or not companies are truly invested in Dei so um 

and so yeah people can take out some ads they can

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say hey we're going to do this we're you know they 

can hold hands and sing Kumbaya and you know say

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oh this is terrible you know I mean and and and 

that's that's fine because that's what's expected

:: 24:36

of them in the moment but that doesn't necessarily 

mean that that is what is taking priority for them

:: 24:43

in those organizations so really when you're 

looking at and this is what I counsel you know

:: 24:48

I have a lot of people that reach out and they 

say hey Leslie I'm interested in getting into

:: 24:53

the Dei space and I'm like okay you have to be 

very thoughtful about where you go um if you want

:: 24:59

to be in the Dei space And so there's certain 

things that you have to look for when you are

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um seeing if a company is really committed to 

Dei one you want to see if the leadership has

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the wherewithal to talk about where they are 

publicly and they are transparent with their

:: 25:19

information and with their data because if they're 

not telling you what their company looks like and

:: 25:25

who's in their company and what they're trying to 

do and that's not coming from the CEO then they'll

:: 25:30

let you know that they're not that invested two a 

lot of organizations kind of embed Dei into their

:: 25:39

HR department and so you have to look at where the 

Dei person falls so you want to find out like who

:: 25:47

the Dei person is reporting to are they reporting 

directly to the CEO are they reporting to the chro

:: 25:54

are they reporting to someone who reports to the 

chro so those are all things that are very telling

:: 26:00

about how committed a company is to Dei um in 

my organization one of the reasons I joined was

:: 26:07

because I had a conversation with my CEO at the 

time and he was very clear about where he stood

:: 26:13

with Dei and he gave me some specific examples 

the other thing that really intrigued me about

:: 26:18

my particular bank is that we have a separate 

office of diversity equity and inclusion and

:: 26:23

my I report into the chief diversity officer who 

reports into the CDO but my entire job is not HR

:: 26:31

it's a separate from HR but then I also get 

involved in things like we do a lot of work

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with our members we're a cooperative bank so we do 

things for members so I do a lot of Education of

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our members but we also do a lot of work around 

Supplier Diversity so if a company is truly

:: 26:48

committed to Dei it's not just an HR involvement 

but it's across the company and then lastly you

:: 26:55

want to look at what resources um those companies 

are putting into Dei are they putting in money to

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you know put those ads out or are they putting in 

money to um put people into leadership development

:: 27:09

programs are they supporting pipeline programs 

are they supporting training programs for their

:: 27:16

employees and so you want to take a broad look 

at what is that com what's important for that

:: 27:21

company and I will say a lot of companies they 

don't you know it's it's smoking mirrors you

:: 27:26

know right so when I saw you know during 2020 you 

know all of a sudden everybody was was jumping on

:: 27:32

this bandwagon but you really have to go a 

lot deeper into companies to see where they

:: 27:37

are around Dei got it got it this you know number 

one thank you for that you know one of the things

:: 27:44

I struggle with you know and and maybe I drank 

the Kool-Aid in: 2020

:: 27:51

was gonna see a reckoning um and everybody was 

saying the same thing but I want to back up to

:: 27:57

what you said a minute ago about a company being 

100% committed because what I've seen at a lot of

:: 28:05

company they're not they yes they'll hire they'll 

hire a chief diversity officer but not everybody

:: 28:11

within the leadership uh uh uh uh Suite is on 

the same page corre right and when you don't

:: 28:18

have everybody on the same page then eventually 

it falls by the wayside and then you know the

:: 28:24

Dei person or that group is is frustrated yeah 

because they're trying to make change that's why

:: 28:32

they're there but they can't get the Buy in all 

right now I want to Pivot to this most company

:: 28:40

not most all companies care about one thing 

Revenue okay they care about the bottom line

:: 28:48

and I've seen you know stuff and we're g to talk 

about it I've seen stuff that says hey having a

:: 28:52

more diverse organization having people who brings 

different perspectives different thoughts can help

:: 29:00

Drive business outcomes better if it was just 

a linear organization can you because to me I

:: 29:08

think and again you tell me but I always thought 

that would be the key if you could show a company

:: 29:15

that they're going to drive more Revenue by being 

more inclusive they should jump on board you know

:: 29:21

both feed on so what's your thoughts on that I 

mean in theory yes but the the the the challenge

:: 29:29

with being um inclusive is that it's hard it 

is um it takes a lot of time it takes a lot

:: 29:36

of conflict resolution it takes a lot of empathy 

and um companies in my experience time is money

:: 29:44

and so they um are looking to Dev develop and do 

things very quickly so they can drive you know

:: 29:50

Drive sales and right but when you're really 

being an inclusive organization you have to do

:: 29:58

a lot more work to get to that spot where people 

feel comfortable sharing their ideas and sharing

:: 30:05

their thoughts and sharing those perspectives 

so a lot of times you know companies will say

:: 30:10

okay we're going to bring some people in and 

we're going to hire all these people but then

:: 30:15

they're not doing the work to get people to stay 

and they're not getting they're not doing the work

:: 30:20

to educate people on how different cultures or 

different communities communicate how they view

:: 30:26

the world how perspectives kind of see things 

and so because everyone's kind of looking for

:: 30:32

that quick fix and inclusion is not a quick fix it 

just isn't and it comes with a lot of time effort

:: 30:39

and empathy that a lot of companies they're not 

necessarily willing to to give So based on that

:: 30:49

you know for my audience and for any person that 

works in Corporate America and for anybody who

:: 30:55

has a Dei organization how is it being measured 

How would how would the average person who works

:: 31:02

who's an entry level a mid manager know that 

their Dei program is working um really it's

:: 31:09

about um the attrition rates um who's who's 

staying and who's um going it's also looking

:: 31:16

at who's being promoted and um who's not being 

promoted so those are very key tangible types

:: 31:24

of things that tell you that they're doing work um 

at my company we do a lot of work around Supplier

:: 31:31

Diversity um so we measure how we are on boarding 

venders how we're supporting diverse businesses

:: 31:38

so for example what we did um we have a very 

thoughtful Supplier Diversity Program and in

:: 31:44

Chicago during the pandemic ironically we moved 

offices and so we built a brand new office and

:: 31:51

what my company said they they said okay we're 

GNA have 50% of the vendors that are associated

:: 31:58

with our move and that construction project 

are going to be diverse vendors and so they

:: 32:03

were thoughtful they did a lot of research they 

did a lot of um relationship building and so as

:: 32:09

a result of that 81% of our vendors that were 

associated with our um office move were diverse

:: 32:17

vendors so it's really about looking at where 

your organization is and what it is that you're

:: 32:23

kind of going to work at and how you're going 

to improve those things because that's another

:: 32:28

thing that a lot of Dei um programs do they kind 

of boil the ocean they say okay we want to do this

:: 32:33

we want to do that we want to do everything and 

and you can't and and you have to be thoughtful

:: 32:38

and you have to look at Dei as a business and 

you have to say okay these are some goals this

:: 32:42

is what I want to have this is where we are this 

is where I'm trying to be and then actively work

:: 32:47

and create initiatives that are going to get you 

there that is outstanding and and and I just want

:: 32:52

to back up a little bit because I want to make 

sure everybody's on the same page with what you

:: 32:56

said right so first your company is 100% committed 

to Dei now let's be clear a lot of companies say

:: 33:04

that but here's the to my question the employees 

can see that you're 100% committed because you

:: 33:12

said we're g 50% of our vendors are going to be 

people of col people can see that so they can

:: 33:18

see that you're actually doing what you're said 

you're going to do which I would imagine when you

:: 33:25

talked about that one of the measure measuring 

sticks was attrition I would imagine when people

:: 33:31

see that the company is actually 100% committed 

and then they can see some of the results they're

:: 33:36

probably staying at your organization as well is 

that correct correct yes exactly exactly we know

:: 33:43

that a lot of companies have Dei organ uh Dei 

departments we know they still struggle to be

:: 33:51

able to to be effective because most of them 

are not 100% committed most of them to your

:: 33:57

point of looking at the short putt so you know 

hey we gota you know we gotta drive Revenue now

:: 34:02

they're not looking at the whole 18 whole whole 

course right the question I have is then why is

:: 34:08

Dei under attack because out in the media sphere 

right you have everybody calling their woke or

:: 34:18

you know they uh I'm GNA lose my job or you know 

there you know uh uh um these diverse we don't

:: 34:25

want diversity and incl usion you know people are 

having uh political campaigns not talking about

:: 34:32

you know we're going to save you from foreign 

enemies or we're going to make the economy better

:: 34:36

or you know we're gonna build out infrastructure 

it's woke it's we don't want diversity inclusion

:: 34:43

so if it ain't working the way it's supposed 

to but why are people attacking it you

:: 34:51

know so I don't know if we 

have enough time to go into

:: 34:59

I mean you know people don't like it when their 

environment is changing and they like things

:: 35:11

to stay the way they are and our country is is 

Shifting and is changing and um and people are

:: 35:19

nervous so we KN you know I mean statistics say 

that you know by: 2050

:: 35:27

count you know blah you know all these things 

so so for so for people that this is Shifting

:: 35:34

for that is very um it's a challenge for them 

because they don't know how to do that and so

:: 35:41

and that's part of what's making and this is just 

my opinion making our country just so polarized

:: 35:47

is the fact that people aren't willing to give 

up what they think they have and um oh can you

:: 35:55

just back hold it for one second so you I just 

want to you said people are not willing to give

:: 36:00

up what they think they have what did you mean 

by that I mean that there's a book and I can't

:: 36:07

remember who wrote it but it's called the sum of 

all fears and basically what that book talks about

:: 36:13

are all of these proposals that could have gone 

through government so they're talking about like

:: 36:18

the unions they're talking about different Housing 

Programs different things that weren't necessarily

:: 36:25

racially based but because of the context in which 

it was framed for people by certain people that

:: 36:33

they were um talking about how they were going 

to lose something if this legislation went went

:: 36:39

through and so as a result of that you know we 

have people that have been um influenced by the

:: 36:46

media influenced by our government influenced by a 

lot of different people that aren't truly educated

:: 36:52

on what are those things that could potentially 

benefit people to make things a little bit more

:: 36:57

Equitable across the Spectrum and so I think that 

um because our country it's it's so racially based

:: 37:06

um people are so it's such a a a difficult topic 

and finally um people you know especially black

:: 37:14

people are are saying you know what this has been 

going on for years and they can give very specific

:: 37:20

tangible examples but people are just saying well 

no that's not true I mean in Florida they're just

:: 37:26

saying this slavery um benefited black people I 

mean so I mean people are just kind of uh spearing

:: 37:33

you know this kind of rhetoric around because 

they're trying to make people think that they're

:: 37:38

going to lose something if they aren't given you 

know if things shift or if things change and I

:: 37:45

think that has a lot to do and so fear-mongering 

corre Zero Sum game and the strategy divide and

:: 37:52

conquer absolutely right if we can separate them 

and they fight amongst themselves we can stay in

:: 37:59

power right right you know obviously we have a 

lot of um you know white listeners to a black

:: 38:05

executive perspective podcast and what you just 

got from understanding the majority of of of that

:: 38:12

fear the majority of the Zero Sum game I'm G to 

lose out is coming from the white population what

:: 38:19

would you say to our audience that are white 

um and calm their fears that University Equity

:: 38:27

inclusion within their organization is a good 

thing and then more importantly is not to replace

:: 38:33

them so I would love to hear your thoughts on 

that yeah I mean I think that what people have to

:: 38:42

really recognize is that as Americans and really 

just for people in general in the world people

:: 38:50

want the same thing they want to feel happy they 

want their children to be successful they want to

:: 38:57

be able to um live and work most people want to 

work you know all they want everybody wants the

:: 39:06

same things and so I think what you have to do is 

people have different experiences and perspectives

:: 39:14

and so it's really about taking that time to 

listen to understand where people are coming from

:: 39:21

and what it is that they want for themselves and 

really try to find a a way way to blend the values

:: 39:28

and the things that they want together so I think 

that that's something that's extremely important

:: 39:34

and what we found like at my bank especially and 

I think this has worked pretty well is um white

:: 39:42

people assume that they're not diverse because 

a lot of times you know I'll go into a room and

:: 39:48

they'll say I'm not diverse and I'm like uh 

everybody diversity means difference it's not

:: 39:55

you know it's not I'm black so I'm not you know 

that's not what diversity is so so basically what

:: 40:00

you're saying is they're they're thinking it from 

a color standpoint corre Bas got you color or age

:: 40:06

or you know whatever you throw that dimension in 

there but but they're looking at it you know I am

:: 40:11

not diverse and so what I always try to explain 

to people is that no person is the same and that

:: 40:17

everybody has different perspectives and different 

ways of doing things and to your point earlier

:: 40:24

that you talked about if you're willing to do that 

work then you can make more money for your company

:: 40:30

and then more opportunities will follow and so 

one at my at my bank is um in: 2020

:: 40:37

and I'm still doing it now is we've just created 

um places for conversation so I started right

:: 40:44

in 2020 and we were very in my opinion pretty 

courageous because we did three panel discussions

:: 40:51

um if we called them getting real about race 

so the first one we had black people sharing

:: 40:56

their feelings after George Floyd then after some 

convincing um I had found four white people and

:: 41:03

I said I want you to share what you have learned 

about race and what you were taught about race and

:: 41:08

they shared their experiences and then we did a 

program for Baby Boomers and Millennials and what

:: 41:14

they were taught about race and how that kind of 

influenced their perspective and then after that

:: 41:19

I did a lot of self small group conversations to 

react to what they heard during those panels but

:: 41:24

what we've managed to do at my company is kind 

of let people tell their own diversity or their

:: 41:31

own inclusion story and so from that people are 

getting to know each other from very different

:: 41:38

perspectives and so as a result so once I can 

connect with you emotionally then it's much easier

:: 41:45

for me to have an understanding of where you're 

coming from and then that's why we can drive we're

:: 41:52

we're having a lot of success at my company I 

would say is because we're we're facilitating

:: 41:57

these conversations where people feel safe enough 

to share with each other I love it leslee I love

:: 42:05

it I love it I love it and that's why we started 

this podcast because at the end of the day for

:: 42:10

whatever reason we don't talk about race we avoid 

it like the plague and the reason we avoid it it

:: 42:18

doesn't bring people together it further pushes 

them apart but if you can get people together and

:: 42:23

put get them in a safe space and let them talk 

and let them ask questions without them being

:: 42:31

judged or anything like that it's amazing that we 

start coming together and more importantly we see

:: 42:37

the other person's perspective right no matter 

what color so that's awesome one of the things

:: 42:44

you know and I know I'm just thinking of things 

that my audience will probably want to dive into

:: 42:49

how did as as an individual and I I've you know 

I had a friend of mine tell me that um you know

:: 42:57

his friend was going for a job and he had talked 

and you had talked earlier about networking okay

:: 43:03

and typically people hire who they already know 

all right so he was going for J white guy right

:: 43:10

uh guy said yep I like you give me a couple days 

I think I'm gon bring you in right and then when

:: 43:16

he followed up with him uh the hiring manager 

said uh unfortunately man that job is filled

:: 43:22

we had to give it to a diverse candidate right 

so then this yeah see how your head goes down

:: 43:29

and then so now this guy walks away saying that 

was my job all right but they had to give it to

:: 43:37

a diverse candidate which basically in his mind 

this person wasn't qualified they only hired

:: 43:44

them because they're black or woman or whatever 

the case may be so so speak to that a little bit

:: 43:49

because that's one of the things going back to 

your some of all fears type thing right or what

:: 43:55

you think you have right so I would love to hear 

your thoughts on that because that's something

:: 44:01

that we're seeing a lot and a lot of people I chat 

with and they're frustrated because the the person

:: 44:07

comes into the company with two hands tied behind 

their back because now they're they're denoted

:: 44:13

they're noted as a diverse not not the the the 

companies not saying but the people around them

:: 44:18

saying you only here because you're a diverse uh 

hire yeah and I mean a lot of that just comes from

:: 44:24

um education um you know everyone will always 

say well we couldn't we couldn't find anybody

:: 44:31

and um and but I you know I I know thousands of 

people that have degrees and that are experienced

:: 44:41

and that have um wonderful characteristics and 

I and I I could call one you know right now or

:: 44:46

20 right now if you needed me to but the problem 

is we're not looking and and it's a a lot of it

:: 44:51

is just the perpetuation to your point again of 

like just media and how um people always talk

:: 44:58

about these things and so rather than saying so 

sometimes people are trying to make others like

:: 45:05

them feel better and so they'll things like oh it 

went to the diverse candidate so instead of saying

:: 45:11

oh we gave it to this woman who um is from MIT 

has you know this degree she she has this type of

:: 45:20

background correct and she brings this and she's a 

perfect fit for the job right so instead of I mean

:: 45:26

so we really have to change how we are talking 

about what is required for these jobs and so we're

:: 45:33

you have to kind of shift that conversation into 

like what is the experience what is it the skills

:: 45:39

that these people are possessing and not about the 

diversity and that that's the biggest challenge

:: 45:45

but not there isn't enough education around hiring 

managers because you know if we all can put our

:: 45:51

HR hats on and say okay you know HR I'm I know 

because I'm in nhr that this is how we we talk

:: 45:57

about things but we're not educating those hiring 

managers that are making those hiring and that's

:: 46:05

really where that kind of uh is is the hiccup 

there's no question and I always said you know

:: 46:14

I I always came come back to this if you really 

want to diversify your organization you will

:: 46:21

because if you don't any excuse will do right okay 

so that that's a atic you know one of the one of

:: 46:28

the areas that I've heard uh you know my audience 

probably heard when they're trying you and that's

:: 46:35

why I want to jump into it because you spoke to 

it well it's hard to find somebody we don't know

:: 46:40

nobody and this is my opinion and and look I've 

been in Corporate America for over 35 years I've

:: 46:45

seen a lot okay I've been a hiring manager at the 

end of the day to your point when you just want to

:: 46:51

feel the job and you and you you say hey lesie I 

know Lesley let's get Lesley in here here but if

:: 46:56

you don't have a network of individuals that's 

outside of the people that you know then you

:: 47:02

say it's hard and then not only that I want this 

where I want to dive into this because when you

:: 47:08

we're talking about senior leadership I'm talking 

you know SVP I'm talking seite right at the end

:: 47:15

of the day it's always hard to find a person of 

color a black person to be you know C or CFO and

:: 47:23

and I and I get a sense and that's why I want 

to hear your thoughts is the uh the process of

:: 47:31

that of finding that individual in other words if 

somebody's white and we're just looking at their

:: 47:36

background and we're like oh who do you know and 

we we vet them a little bit but if they're black

:: 47:41

they have to be unique they have to be like an 

astronaut they have to be the one one of one%

:: 47:48

to get the job versus everybody else didn't have 

to be vetted that way they're regular individuals

:: 47:55

right and they're just and they got the and look 

they probably got it because they deserve it I'm

:: 48:00

not knocking it but when it comes to vetting 

highlevel black individuals it's a it's a it's

:: 48:06

a different vetting game let me hear your thoughts 

on that yeah I mean I mean you spoke to it um it's

:: 48:13

it's who you know and um the the challenge is 

you have to work with those leaders to help them

:: 48:22

expand their networks and so there are several 

things that you can do to get people to expand

:: 48:28

their networks if people are willing to do that 

and that is part of the challenge you have to

:: 48:34

get people willing to do that and that comes from 

again conversation engagement and empathy but one

:: 48:41

of the things like we do at our bank is so we have 

ergs but and I I had a I'm we're starting a pride

:: 48:50

ERG at the moment so okay um and My Philosophy 

is every ERG has an executive sponsor and I work

:: 48:58

with those executive sponsors and I say okay 

this is what your role is and I give them their

:: 49:02

education I say here are some articles here are 

some podcasts here are some things if you are

:: 49:07

going to be working with this ERG I need really 

need you to understand this community but we want

:: 49:13

I have a rule that if you identify with that ERG 

for my executive sponsors so I can't have my black

:: 49:22

um Executives representing our African-American 

ERG are I have to have someone who's white um so

:: 49:30

they can understand what some of those challenges 

are and what people are saying on the ground to

:: 49:36

help grow their networks and so you have to put 

people into situations where if they're not going

:: 49:43

to do it on their own you have to create those 

opportunities for for you to do it for them and

:: 49:49

so it's important to make sure that um those 

SE Suite those SVP leaders have some kind of

:: 49:57

access to different employees across all different 

backgrounds so they can really start to understand

:: 50:04

that everyone is at the company because we hired 

them into the company because they brought some

:: 50:10

value to the company and so we have to give them 

the opportunity to share how they are contributing

:: 50:18

and how they're adding value and do it in a 

way that's not being judged by something that

:: 50:25

they said or something that they did but really 

um giving our senior leaders that exposure to

:: 50:30

this is how these communities communicate this is 

how they work this is how things happen in those

:: 50:36

communities that's awesome are you guys do you 

get any push back from within the organization

:: 50:43

it seems like you guys you got a lot of good stuff 

going on so I'm you know i' never seen nobody 100%

:: 50:49

of anybody of anything be so what do you what 

do you how do you deal with the push back that

:: 50:54

happens in the organization you know I mean really 

what we're trying to do so thankfully I work for

:: 51:00

an organization that's based in community um 

and so our mission is really to help communities

:: 51:06

Thrive and so we give Capital to Community Banks 

Credit Unions those types of things so they can

:: 51:11

make home loans and they can make small business 

loans in their communities and so really um what

:: 51:17

we do whenever I get some pushback it's really 

about you know do you understand what community

:: 51:24

means and what it means in these particular areas 

and so like I don't know last year I got a letter

:: 51:31

a very long email from someone that was um very 

interested in why we decided to call out juneth

:: 51:39

um and celebrate it as a part of the company's 

kind of celebratory things but we didn't do

:: 51:46

Fourth of July and you know and the the person 

was very you know upset because we didn't call

:: 51:52

out Fourth of July and I said we've been calling 

out Fourth of July for you know years but um and

:: 51:59

we've talked about but we this is the first time 

that juneth is a holiday in our country and a lot

:: 52:04

of people don't understand what that means and so 

my job is to educate you about different things

:: 52:11

that impact different individuals that aren't 

like you and so that's kind of how I keep all

:: 52:17

of that going so wow I mean listen you know 

unfortunately you're not gonna get everybody

:: 52:24

but I love the way you yeah it's just not going to 

happen but still you guys are 100% committed you

:: 52:29

know earlier we talked about intersectionality 

right and so you know you have you know we all

:: 52:38

are not just singular individuals right you have 

African-Americans that's gay you have you know

:: 52:44

LBG you have a whole Litany of different people 

but also who intersect into different things so

:: 52:53

tell me a little bit in terms of how de the the 

influence for how it's needed for Dei I mean the

:: 53:01

importance I should say I mean intersectionality 

um I mean you just said it best we we are not just

:: 53:07

one thing you know I am a woman and I experience 

things as a woman I am biracial I experiencing

:: 53:14

things being um I'm genx and so my view of the 

world keep going down the roll and but but see

:: 53:24

and what's really interesting for me you know 

especially me being biracial you know I get a

:: 53:29

lot of people are like well what's it like to be 

mixed I'm like I don't know you know what's it

:: 53:32

like to be BL you know I don't know and so and I 

can't answer you know because even my experience

:: 53:40

as a biracial person um is very different from my 

brother's experience as a biracial person you know

:: 53:47

my brother looks different from me my brother 

is a man and so how I can navigate through the

:: 53:52

world is very different how he has to navigate 

through the world and when you think about that

:: 53:58

intersectionality um there are lots of multiple 

lenses that people View and experience the world

:: 54:05

and so you can't lump people into just one 

bucket and so that's really what diversity

:: 54:11

equity and that key word is inclusion inclusion 

really talking about it's like making people

:: 54:17

understand things from a variety of experiences 

and perspectives not just putting people into a

:: 54:22

bucket and that's what's really important that is 

awesome and I love that answer because it is so

:: 54:28

important and at the end of the day if we can all 

come together and more importantly stop worrying

:: 54:33

about you know what about me right and really 

you know say hey let's what can we do together

:: 54:40

you know our our our our our companies our country 

would be going in a lot of different uh PL better

:: 54:48

places absolutely you know a couple of weeks about 

a month or two ago the Supreme Court came down and

:: 54:54

said that you can't use race for admissions 

um to for for college admissions do you think

:: 55:02

that's gonna have any effect in terms of corporate 

America from a Dei standpoint I mean I think it

:: 55:08

already has you know I mean you had the GOP you 

know they had the was it the State's Attorneys

:: 55:14

or attorney generals sending letters um putting 

people on notice and exactly had um you had the

:: 55:21

Democrats um putting other people on notice you 

know that you can't yes and so I think that you

:: 55:27

know again it's really about you know who you are 

as a company and as an organization and what it is

:: 55:35

that your company truly values and so I think 

that you know if you do um things like based

:: 55:43

on race that makes people nervous because they're 

looking at okay am I gonna be sued and so what you

:: 55:51

have to think about is what are what am I doing 

for all of my employees and what experiences am

:: 55:58

I giving to all of my employees and what do they 

need and what conversations do they have to have

:: 56:04

because not everybody walks into a space at the 

same level with the same Viewpoint and so maybe

:: 56:12

providing employees with things that they hadn't 

considered prior is the way to do that without

:: 56:20

necessarily calling out race specifically but you 

can call out different experiences you can call

:: 56:25

out different ideas and perspectives based on um 

what is happening in the world so so Bas based on

:: 56:33

that and I hear you how do so if I'm hearing that 

and you know things like they don't want to be

:: 56:40

sued so when a company says that hey I want and go 

back to what you said earlier about hey 50% of our

:: 56:45

vendors are going to be you know diverse right 

so how do you now um are are able to increase

:: 56:53

your diversity but not you know say race or come 

up with percentages in terms of what you want to

:: 56:59

do from a from a A diversity standpoint I mean 

I I think you you want to always keep in mind

:: 57:06

your numbers and you you want to always kind of 

look at like what's happening and but I do think

:: 57:12

you know even when we were very targeted around 

finding our vendors um those diverse vendors to

:: 57:18

work on that project we didn't hire those diverse 

vendors because they were black they were diverse

:: 57:24

we hired those vendors because we intentionally we 

looked for people that could give us the services

:: 57:32

and products that we needed and they had the best 

service that was available and so we went out to

:: 57:40

find and so we didn't say okay well we're not 

going to take any bids from any white company

:: 57:46

we we didn't do that you know we took bids from 

everybody but then we made decisions based on our

:: 57:51

price points what they're what they were offering 

and that's how those DEC decisions were made but

:: 57:56

it was because we were being very thoughtful in 

making sure that we had a wide array of people

:: 58:03

that were responding and we went outside of our 

networks um to find different vendors that could

:: 58:10

compete for those bids and for those projects 

that's how we were able to do it so we weren't

:: 58:15

doing it just to say Hey you know we got to put 

some black people in to build our chairs or you

:: 58:20

know whatever we we didn't do it that way we 

did it um we went through our normal process

:: 58:24

process but then we expanded our Network to make 

sure that we were finding the best vendors that

:: 58:30

could meet our needs awesome awesome you know I 

got two final questions for you it seems like you

:: 58:37

know your bank you know number one they hired the 

the right person right you you have the passion

:: 58:45

and you you're 100% behind it you're making sure 

you're trying to include everyone outside of you

:: 58:52

know your organization what other organization 

you have seen that's doing a really good job

:: 58:58

from a diversity Equity inclusion standpoint so 

I would say I mean and I am biased um the YMCA

:: 59:07

um okay they do some great set that up before you 

left I mean they do but see one of the things that

:: 59:15

the Y does is they they take their communities 

through like um there's a there's a inventory

:: 59:22

it's called the Intercultural development in 

inventory that kind of just kind of bases your

:: 59:26

cultural awareness so they take their leaders 

through that they have a lot of conversations

:: 59:31

around race so they're very bold um I would 

also say you know I always speak to um Nike

:: 59:37

I mean honestly I mean I think that just with 

how they stood behind Colin Kaepernick during

:: 59:44

that whole I I don't I'm not a I don't follow 

football yeah yeah yeah no no no I know when he

:: 59:49

took the knee and stuff like that yeah but they 

you know they said this is Who We Are are and

:: 59:55

this is what we are about and they did not waver 

from that and so I think that you know you have

:: 00:02

to take a stand on who you are and so and for me 

Nike kind of represents they have always been not

:: 00:11

always but you know I mean in the last you know 20 

years they have been very inclusive they've been

:: 00:16

very thoughtful about how they could you know 

work with different um abilities um I love they

:: 00:22

have new shoe designs for people that you know 

have you know uh Developmental and uh they're

:: 00:29

physically um challenged and those of things and 

so I mean but they're always being they're at the

:: 00:35

Forefront of how they can be more inclusive 

I would also say that hayatt um International

:: 00:41

they do an exceptional job um Tyron stud Meer he 

does some fantastic work with hayatt in terms of

:: 00:48

thinking about their employees and thinking 

about how they can grow that Pipeline and

:: 00:52

they're very intentional about who's coming into 

into the company and how they're being successful

:: 00:57

so those are two I would watch for sure that's 

awesome thank you for that feedback and then the

:: 01:02

final thought is what do you want to leave to our 

listeners today what's your final thought for our

:: 01:07

listeners I mean my final thought is inclusion 

matters it it's it's just it's important and I

:: 01:13

will say that you know our country at the moment 

is very divisive um it's very polarized but you

:: 01:20

know knowing who you are and knowing what it's 

about and how you want to serve all people and

:: 01:27

all customers is really important and you can only 

do that by bringing a variety of people together

:: 01:34

and being intentional about being inclusive I love 

it be intentional about being inclusive I love it

:: 01:41

I love it how can a black executive perspective 

podcast help you lesli you know um I appreciate

:: 01:49

this conversation and what is what I am definitely 

going to do is share this with my Executives and

:: 01:56

I'm going to share it with um a lot of people that 

are asking questions about how we can do this work

:: 02:02

better and so um I do think that bringing in very 

relevant topics and bringing in speakers and one

:: 02:09

of the things I would love to hear more about 

is the polarization that's happening and so if

:: 02:14

you have someone coming up to talk about that 

especially with these elections that are coming

:: 02:19

that would that would be a fantastic thing for 

me to learn from well guess what we do and I'm

:: 02:26

going to circle back with you after and I'll let 

you know as soon as we book the time because we

:: 02:29

already chatted with a couple individuals we just 

got to scheduled it so we'll definitely let you

:: 02:33

on know on that you know I want to thank you for 

your passion your intellect you know you you you

:: 02:40

you bring a level of not just expertise but I'll 

use your word very intentional um and at the end

:: 02:48

of the day to make things you know there's an 

old saying nothing grows in a comfort zone and

:: 02:54

you know most people and we're all human beings 

we want to be comfortable however you grow when

:: 03:02

you're uncomfortable correct right and that's 

where we need to get a lot of these organizations

:: 03:07

to it's okay to be uncomfortable and not try to 

play for the short putt but be uncomfortable so

:: 03:13

then you can win you know the the 18 hole game 

versus the first two holes so you helped us with

:: 03:20

that today you gave us a lot to think uh things 

to think about so my tidbit for the day is this

:: 03:26

and is by Allan Joyce we have a very diverse 

environment and a very inclusive culture and

:: 03:34

those characteristics got us through the tough 

times diversity generates better strategy better

:: 03:41

risk management better debates debates and better 

outcomes and that's by Allan enjoice so hopefully

:: 03:50

you enjoy today's uh session is DUI working love 

as I said love to to hear your feedback give us

:: 03:57

feedback and for my guest Leslie I'm Tony tidbit 

we're out thank you for tuning in to this episode

:: 04:05

of Tony tidbit a black executive perspective 

and for joining in today's conversation with

:: 04:12

every story We Share every conversation we Foster 

and every barrier we address we can ignite the

:: 04:20

Sparks that bring about lasting change and this 

carries us one step closer to transforming the

:: 04:26

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:: 04:32

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:: 04:39

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:: 04:45

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