Beyond Bars: A New Vision for Corrections

Speaker: 00:00:00

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Our

families and communities have

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given up on they've cast away.

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They don't care about anymore.

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Um, they violated their norms.

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They violated their relationships, but

there's got to be someone that cares

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about them to help them get back on track.

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Right?

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And I love being that guy.

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I love having the staff that we have

that we have in this facility to help

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people turn their lives around to make

them know that they are that they matter.

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And that we want the best for them.

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Tony Tidbit: We'll

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discuss race and how it plays a factor.

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How we didn't even talk about this topic.

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Because we were afraid.

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A Black

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BEP Narrator: Executive Perspective.

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Tony Tidbit: We are live

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at the new BEP studio.

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Bringing you another thought

provoking episode of a Black

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Executive Perspective podcast.

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A safe space where we discuss

all matters related to race.

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Especially race in corporate America.

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A I'm your host, Tony Tidbitt.

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Chris P. Reed: And I'm

your co host, Chris P.

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Reid.

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Before we get too far into this, we want

to definitely remember to have you check

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out our partners at CodeM Magazine.

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CodeM Magazine, whose mission

is saving the Black family by

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first saving the Black man.

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That is CodeM Magazine 2Ms.

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com.

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CodeM Magazine.

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Make sure you check them out.

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: 00:01:11

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, make

sure you check them out.

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: 00:01:13

And you're gonna check

out our guest today.

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: 00:01:15

Cause we're joined by a visionary . In

the world of corrections, Sheriff Peter J.

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Koutoujian of Middlesex

County, Massachusetts.

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The sheriff has dedicated his career

to not just managing, but fundamentally

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transforming how we think about

corrections and rehabilitation.

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We're going to dive into his

innovative programs he has introduced

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that aim to enhance outcomes

for incarcerated individuals.

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Their families and communities.

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And he's going to discuss how

these initiatives are shaping

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a fairer justice system.

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Chris P. Reed: Let me give you a little

bit of background though, before we get

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too far into this Tony and audience,

uh, sheriff, Peter Koutoujian, the

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30th sheriff of Middlesex County,

Massachusetts, where he, where he brings

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a wealth of experience as a former.

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Assistant District Attorney and a member

of the Massachusetts State Legislature.

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Sheriff Koutoujian has created a way

to use his experience and position

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within the criminal justice system

to transform the broader landscape

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with the use of tailored treatment

programs that tackle the root causes

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of the criminal justice involvement.

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As the head of a comprehensive law

enforcement agency, Sheriff Koutoujian

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manages more than 700 employees

and an annual budget of 77 million.

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His efforts bridge public

health, safety, and service.

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.

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Welcome to a black executive

perspective podcast, sir.

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Thank you so much, Chris.

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Great to be with you.

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And Tony really been excited

and looking forward to this day.

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Yeah, we have as well,

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Tony Tidbit: buddy.

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So listen, you're doing

some real cool stuff.

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So we're excited to hear from you,

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Chris P. Reed: but go ahead, Chris.

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It's a mouthful.

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That's a mouthful.

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But, uh, so you know what, let's

just start it off real nice and easy.

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Uh, sheriff, could you, can you tell us

more about where you currently reside

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and, and some of your family dynamics

and things of that nature, things

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that are near and dear to your heart?

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Sure.

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Um, you know, I'm a, I'm a kid

from Waltham, Massachusetts, and.

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No matter where I go in the

country, I always say I'm just

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a kid from Waltham, right?

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I always feel like if you forget where

you came from, um, you get lost, right?

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So I'm a kid from Waltham, modest

blue collar community, about 60,

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000 right here in Middlesex County.

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My, uh, my mother was a teacher,

my father was a city clerk for over

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30 years, uh, running the municipal

elections and marriage licenses

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and, um, uh, death certificates, all

the things that a city clerk does.

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Uh, and a true public servant, someone,

someone that inspired me, um, you know,

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I, I was lucky enough to get up to go

to, um, uh, an undergraduate school at

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a state school here in Massachusetts,

Bridgewater State University.

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My son goes there now, my mother,

who's 86 years old, actually takes

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classes at the senior college

virtually now, which I love.

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We got.

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She loves to tell people that she

goes to college with her grandson.

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I don't think he finds it as amusing

as she does, but it's really cute.

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Um, and then I was able to go to New

England law to get my law degree.

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And then I went to the Kennedy school

for a master's in public administration.

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Middle six County is 1.

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8 million people, uh, 54 independent

in individual cities and towns.

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Um, and a little bit more about me as.

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My father was Armenian American.

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Um, uh, his, his parents, my grandparents

actually fled the Armenian genocide,

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um, uh, fleeing, um, you know,

historic Armenia with really nothing

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but the clothing on their back and

ending up in this great country and

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raising a family here and becoming

the truest of patriots, my mother.

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Um, was Irish American, uh,

second generation Irish American.

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And so I really had this great

blend of two cultures of being,

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uh, both Irish and Armenian.

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Uh, and then, uh, and then

being American at the same time.

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And having this blend was

really special in my life.

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My mother embraced the Arminianism

of my father in a way that, um,

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uh, many might not have expected,

but she pushed me more into my

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Arminianism than my father really did.

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Um, and it is, uh, it's been

a rich and beautiful, um,

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you know, life that I've had.

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And, uh, you know, I'm really lucky

to, uh, to be here right now, quite

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honestly, in a job that I love so much.

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Tony Tidbit: So listen, my

friend, thank you for that.

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That is awesome.

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Uh, you know, family is very important.

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It shapes us who we are

positively or negatively.

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So it's great to hear about.

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You know, you came from a strong family.

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They had a lot to do in terms

of your makeup in terms of where

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you, what you're doing today.

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And we definitely want to dive

in more to, to learn about them.

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Cause I, obviously, you know, your, your

job is to oversee a department that is

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really about protecting all citizens,

um, regardless of where they come from.

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So we really want to dive into that.

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But the question I have for you is,

you know, why did you want to come

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on and talk about this topic on a

black executive perspective podcast?

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Well, honestly, I'm.

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I'm a lifelong public servant.

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I've had a blessed professional

life in serving others, right?

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I mean, honestly, that's

what public servants do.

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And I love the profession, and I love

doing good work for the profession, and

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I love bringing honor to the profession.

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To the profession of

public service, right?

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You know, it's just something

I feel really strong about it.

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And I love the fact that we get

to watch out for those that might

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be a little bit more vulnerable

that might need a little help.

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I mean, that's what our government

and that's what our public service

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is here for is to support people

to support our communities,

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individuals, families and communities.

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That's what I get to do.

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And not many people understand what

role a sheriff can have in their lives.

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Or, you know, if you have to be sent

to a place of incarceration, what it

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can be like, you know, if you have

to be there, what it can be like.

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And to allow people the opportunities

to turn their lives around while

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they're serving the sentence

dictated by the court, right?

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Um, and quite honestly, one of the

other things I say, you know, and I'll

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probably close with this again is, you

know, whenever I go in public, Tony

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or Chris and I speak to any group,

it can be people of color, it could

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be white folks, it could be wealthy,

poor, it doesn't matter, right?

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Anywhere in my And I always ask three

questions, how many people know someone

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that has struggled with substance

use disorder, raise your hand.

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It's always two thirds, three quarters,

100 percent of the room raises their hand.

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How many people know someone that

struggled with mental illness?

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Always the same thing up to 100

percent always three quarters to 100%.

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And then I ask a final question,

which seems like you'd get

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much lower hand raising.

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Uh, how many people know

someone's been incarcerated?

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And it's always the same number.

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We all know someone, right?

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And I got to get to the point

that it's not those people, man.

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It's us.

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It's our people.

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It's our family and our friends and

our neighbors and our cousins and our

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neighbors kids that we're speaking about.

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And all of these people deserve

the opportunity to be treated with

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dignity, respect, be given the tools

to help turn their lives around.

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and be treated like

they're a person, right?

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Um, so that when they come back

out, um, they're a much, they're a

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more productive member of society.

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And that's, I never thought

about becoming sheriff.

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It's not something I sought, right?

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Um, as a matter of fact, when the

first, I was, I was initially appointed

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by Governor Deval Patrick here, a

great black executive, by the way,

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um, um, great man, great governor.

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And, uh, he actually

allowed me this opportunity.

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But when people first reached out

and said, you should ask the governor

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for this initial appointment.

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I've now run three times.

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And I was thinking, man, like,

why would I want to be sheriff?

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Like, I don't really get that.

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Like, that doesn't like,

why would I want to do that?

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And then I started looking

into the job because I never

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say never to anything, right?

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I started looking into it.

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And I, I said, man, what a

great opportunity to, to, to

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serve the least of us, right?

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This is the way I also

think about it, right?

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It's, it's, it's, it's, uh, serving

the least of us, the people that,

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um, our families and communities

have given up on, they've cast

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away, they don't care about anymore.

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Right.

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Um, they violated their norms.

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They violated their relationships, but

there's got to be someone that cares

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about them to help them get back on track.

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Right.

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And I love being that guy.

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I love having the staff that we have,

that we have in this facility to help

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people turn their lives around to make

them know that they are, that they matter

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and that we want the best for them.

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People actually say to me, Aren't you

afraid when you go out in public because

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I go inside the facility pretty often

Aren't you afraid when you go into public

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that someone's going to recognize you?

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And my response is always like I hope

they do Because you know, they they know

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that they they know that i'm there trying

to help them And I love being able to

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see them in the community so they can

understand how they're doing and and

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how what we've done is Helped or maybe

didn't help them enough and How maybe we

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can do a better service while we're at

the, while people are at our facility.

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Tony Tidbit: Right, right, buddy.

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I mean, look, we, we, we at the

beginning of the show and you,

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and you, you, my man, I mean, did he,

how many cups of coffee did you have?

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I'm talking about somebody

that's very passionate.

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I love it, man.

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So, so listen, I'm glad you're on because

to your point, and then you said a few

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things there, you said a lot of stuff.

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That not only resonated with me,

I could see Chris's response.

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It also resonated with our audience.

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We all know somebody

that's been incarcerated.

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Right.

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We, we do sometimes treat them as

they, uh, um, have leopard disease.

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All right.

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They're leper, right?

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And that's an old, you

know, um, um, um, disease.

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People used to have them put back

in the olden days and put him in the

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cave and nobody would go near him.

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Right.

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And we do treat him that way.

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And then when they do come out,

they don't have a chance, right?

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They're set up for failure.

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Right.

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And then I think the other thing

that you said, which is key, uh,

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Um, also key is that most people

don't know what a sheriff does.

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You know, I, you know, yo Sammy, yo Sammy.

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I mean, most, I'm Marshall

Dillon, you know, most people

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and I'm dating myself, right?

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But most people don't.

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So we're glad you're here.

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We see you chomping at the bit.

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All right.

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The talk about it.

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So you ready to talk about it?

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Sheriff?

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: I'm

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Tony Tidbit: ready to go.

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Let's go.

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All right, buddy.

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Let's talk about it.

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Chris P. Reed: All right, so you

know what, let's, uh, go back because

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you intrigued me as a historian.

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You intrigued me with the

history, especially your mom and

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I respect and appreciate that.

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And trust me, your son will, will change

his tune as he gets a little years under

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him and realize how special this is.

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But go back to even more earlier

influences or memories of the

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community because you said something

about just being a guy from Walham.

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I think that's how you

pronounce it, right?

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Waltham.

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Waltham.

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So, Waltham.

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Okay, there we go.

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See, see, I'm learning something today.

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So, I'm expanding my horizons.

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But, how did Waltham Contribute to shaping

the man that we have before us today.

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Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: So, you know,

it was, it was a blue collar community.

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It was a little bit of a tough community.

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Um, quite honestly, uh, I grew

up in the tougher part of the

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neighborhood and, uh, um, my junior

high school years were not easy ones.

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I'll just say that, right.

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I was the only kid with braces in my

neighborhood in my junior high school.

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I was the only kid wearing

that horrible headgear.

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You know, the old headgear around the face

because my mom made me wear it to school.

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It was horrifying and basically

that was just asking for a

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beating right there, right?

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So those years were very difficult for me.

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Um, and I think that for

any executive, right?

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You always think about the dark times,

the difficult times that that, that

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put you through the ringer that gave

you that metal that gave you that

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grit that you went through those dark

times, you became stronger for that.

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And I, and I think I did with

that, but what was also great about

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wallfam was it was a very ethnic

community, but it also took good

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care of people with disabilities.

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So, um, you know, so since I was

a kid and even today, I still, uh,

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volunteer with, um, for organizations

that support people with intellectual

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and cognitive disabilities, right.

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I still volunteer at, you know, at

shelters serving on Thanksgiving

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and in other evenings of the year.

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These are service lessons that

I just learned in my hometown.

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The kind of nice thing, and I say this

because, you know, I would grow up with

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people with disabilities, intellectual and

cognitive disabilities, and they weren't,

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you know, they weren't those people.

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They were my friends, right?

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I kind of grew up with them, uh, and

have soft sought my heart for them.

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And we, and I would still see them at

events going, you know, even today.

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Uh, and that was a special relationship

that I realized I was really lucky

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to have growing up in my community.

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Chris P. Reed: Your mom is coming out

to be the toughest person in Waltham.

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Yeah.

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She's pretty strong.

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Yeah.

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You

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Tony Tidbit: ain't lying.

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I don't even want to deal with it.

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Chris P. Reed: She was on the

right track, but you had mentioned

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their professions earlier.

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How did their professions

and her toughness and the

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community all included it?

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: 00:14:33

to create your perspecti public service.

317

: 00:14:36

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.

318

: 00:14:36

So my mom's.

319

: 00:14:38

Yeah, absolutely servants, right?

320

: 00:14:41

That's w I grew up, I didn't know that.

321

: 00:14:44

You know, um, and m a teacher.

322

: 00:14:47

Then she, then a period of time that you

as my sister and I grew u dad stayed in

323

: 00:14:55

municipal g town of Waltham became th

324

: 00:15:01

As one of the finest clerks and

civil servants in the in the state.

325

: 00:15:06

So this is how I grew up.

326

: 00:15:08

And I think they just gave me an

appreciation of the value of that.

327

: 00:15:11

Now, what I really appreciate is the

fact that I kind of entered public

328

: 00:15:15

service and now am I glad I did right?

329

: 00:15:18

You know, like, like, like, had

I gone someplace else, maybe

330

: 00:15:22

I would have come back, but.

331

: 00:15:24

For many people, what I try to instill

upon them is the value of public

332

: 00:15:27

service, the joy of public service.

333

: 00:15:29

You don't, you know, I don't get paid

as well as some of my counterparts

334

: 00:15:33

or my contemporaries or people

with the same number of degrees

335

: 00:15:36

or whatever it might be, right?

336

: 00:15:38

I don't get, I don't get paid as much

as them, but man, if I love my jobs.

337

: 00:15:42

You know, like, like, once I

figured it out and part of the

338

: 00:15:46

reason I actually started a unit

for young adult offenders, right?

339

: 00:15:49

Um, because I was that young adult

that I wasn't an offender, but I

340

: 00:15:54

had didn't have my act together.

341

: 00:15:55

You know, that age to

about 26 year old that.

342

: 00:15:58

the fuller maturation.

343

: 00:15:59

I was that guy.

344

: 00:16:00

I didn't have my act together.

345

: 00:16:01

And I, and I, and I really struggled,

um, in those years because I didn't

346

: 00:16:05

know the direction I wanted to go to.

347

: 00:16:07

And then one gentleman, Judge Jim Lawton

allowed me to attend my law school, right?

348

: 00:16:12

And I never looked back.

349

: 00:16:13

I never made that mistake

of messing around.

350

: 00:16:15

I worked, you know, my, my, my, my,

My mantra my whole life has been the

351

: 00:16:19

harder I work, the luckier I get right.

352

: 00:16:21

And I worked really hard in my life in

public services, a series of blessings

353

: 00:16:26

because I worked hard and then things

opened up and I started as a, you

354

: 00:16:30

know, private practitioner, but a

public defender, um, uh, for court

355

: 00:16:34

appointed work for, uh, indigent,

um, people charged with crimes.

356

: 00:16:38

And then I, then because I saw the value.

357

: 00:16:42

Of justice in their lives.

358

: 00:16:44

I, I applied and was lucky enough to

be chosen to become a prosecutor in the

359

: 00:16:49

Middlesex District attorney's office.

360

: 00:16:50

Not because I wanted to put people in

jail, but because I wanted to make sure

361

: 00:16:53

I was doing the right thing by people.

362

: 00:16:54

You know?

363

: 00:16:55

Um, you, you can see you can do justice

in that role and I really found that a

364

: 00:17:00

beautiful thing that I was able to do.

365

: 00:17:03

protecting our communities

at the same time.

366

: 00:17:04

And then, um, you know, however it was,

I worked hard and then I got lucky.

367

: 00:17:10

There was an opportunity to run

for state representative and

368

: 00:17:13

I, I ran, I defeated incumbent.

369

: 00:17:15

Um, I served in the legislature

for 14 years and I was the chairman

370

: 00:17:19

of the committee on health care.

371

: 00:17:20

for about six or eight of those years,

which informed me about how to be a

372

: 00:17:25

sheriff more than being, you know, going

through a sheriff's office in some ways

373

: 00:17:30

from an outside perspective, you know,

taught me about, you know, substance use

374

: 00:17:34

disorder and mental illness and medication

assisted treatment and trauma and self

375

: 00:17:40

harm, suicide issues, all the things

that we deal with with our population.

376

: 00:17:44

And then Miraculously, this job opened up.

377

: 00:17:47

So I have, I've not been as paid

well as some of my contemporaries,

378

: 00:17:51

but the fact is, I've loved my

jobs, every single one of them.

379

: 00:17:54

And I can't imagine being more

fulfilled in my professional life or my

380

: 00:17:57

personal life because of that as well.

381

: 00:17:59

Tony Tidbit: That is, I mean,

look, that is awesome, my friend.

382

: 00:18:02

And, you know, starting with a foundation

of your, your father being public

383

: 00:18:07

service, you had something to look up to.

384

: 00:18:09

You talked a little bit how

you navigated, you know, from

385

: 00:18:12

law school, public defender,

prosecutor, um, now sheriff, right?

386

: 00:18:18

And then obviously as you go through

the system and being on all three sides,

387

: 00:18:24

public defender, prosecutor, and then

the sheriff, you've seen a lot of the,

388

: 00:18:30

you've seen how people of color, you

know, Get caught up in the system.

389

: 00:18:35

Okay.

390

: 00:18:35

And, and look, at the end of the day,

we all got to hope we have to hold

391

: 00:18:38

everyone accountable for right and wrong.

392

: 00:18:40

So that's not even the issue, but

you've seen all three sides of that.

393

: 00:18:44

Right.

394

: 00:18:45

So talk, tell us a little bit in terms

of what some of the things that you

395

: 00:18:48

learned because you've been on, you

were the former, uh, the former house

396

: 00:18:52

chair of commissions to end Racial and

ethnic, ethnic health disparities, right?

397

: 00:18:56

So talk a little bit about some of

the things through that journey within

398

: 00:19:00

the system that you've learned about,

you know, what happens to people of

399

: 00:19:04

color when they're in and how tough

it is for not just to get out, but

400

: 00:19:10

to be successful as they come up.

401

: 00:19:13

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah, so

thank you for that question, Tony.

402

: 00:19:16

Um, some of the proudest work I did

is something that not many people,

403

: 00:19:21

um, noticed at the time necessarily

or, or even remember, quite honestly.

404

: 00:19:26

Listen, I had a good, good friend

in my legislative aide, uh, Dan

405

: 00:19:30

Delaney, who was a man of color.

406

: 00:19:33

You know, I still consider him

one of my closest friends, right?

407

: 00:19:36

And it was through Dan that I got

to see the world through the eyes

408

: 00:19:41

of a black man, honestly, right?

409

: 00:19:43

And to understand this, you know, uh,

driving while black was a real thing and

410

: 00:19:47

all these things that you hear about.

411

: 00:19:49

I was educated.

412

: 00:19:50

I was lucky enough to

be educated by a man.

413

: 00:19:54

with some experience, some

knowledge and a lot of intellect.

414

: 00:19:57

Great man.

415

: 00:19:58

And so as we began to explore, um,

the world of healthcare when I was

416

: 00:20:02

chairman of that committee, we came

to realize something that was really

417

: 00:20:06

obvious that, uh, people of color, um,

uh, they died earlier, they suffered

418

: 00:20:14

more disease, premature mortality from

births or like, you know, five, 10, 15

419

: 00:20:20

times higher than the white community.

420

: 00:20:22

You know cancers heart conditions all

these things that were that communities

421

: 00:20:28

of color and poor communities struggled

with And no one seemed to care.

422

: 00:20:35

You know, this is what that

doesn't really bother me, right?

423

: 00:20:37

If it was happening to the Irish community

of the Armenian community of the Italian

424

: 00:20:41

community of the Jewish community,

there'd be there'd be a human cry, right?

425

: 00:20:44

This is the injustice of this is

wrong, and we need to fix this.

426

: 00:20:49

But because it was happening in the

black and brown community, no one,

427

: 00:20:52

you know, not that they didn't care,

but there was no one doing something.

428

: 00:20:56

What was even worse was there was no

one calling for a real study of it.

429

: 00:21:01

Right.

430

: 00:21:01

You had academic studies here and there.

431

: 00:21:03

So I remember speaking with Dan and we

had the idea that, uh, I should ask the

432

: 00:21:08

speaker of the house, uh, to consider, uh,

establishing a commission to study racial

433

: 00:21:15

and, uh, uh, the, the, um, racial and

uh, ethnic minority health disparities.

434

: 00:21:20

Right.

435

: 00:21:21

Um, and it was a

conservative speaker, right?

436

: 00:21:25

Um, democrat, conservative

speaker, and he wasn't interested.

437

: 00:21:29

Now.

438

: 00:21:29

I don't think it was

because it was a racist.

439

: 00:21:31

You I think it was because he's thinking

it's going to cost a lot of money.

440

: 00:21:33

We're going to open up a Pandora's box.

441

: 00:21:34

It's going to cost a lot of money.

442

: 00:21:35

So.

443

: 00:21:36

You know, the motivations may not

have been perfect, but they weren't

444

: 00:21:39

the wrong motivations, right?

445

: 00:21:40

Tony Tidbit: Right.

446

: 00:21:40

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Can you

447

: 00:21:41

Tony Tidbit: stop right

there for a second?

448

: 00:21:42

Because I want you to finish,

but you make a good point here.

449

: 00:21:45

And I want to dive into that, right?

450

: 00:21:47

Because at the end of the day, and, and,

and don't lose your train of thought

451

: 00:21:52

because I want to go there, right?

452

: 00:21:54

However, we, we got to also be, we got

to be honest because a lot of times, even

453

: 00:22:00

though people running for public service,

or they're in public service, right?

454

: 00:22:04

And.

455

: 00:22:05

They also, they get their

job by getting elected.

456

: 00:22:09

All right.

457

: 00:22:10

So if there are certain, uh, um, issues

that they don't feel is going to help

458

: 00:22:19

them, or they don't feel they have a

whole wave of support behind them to

459

: 00:22:24

jump on it, that's going to help them.

460

: 00:22:26

Get that wave of that reelection.

461

: 00:22:29

It doesn't mean that they,

I don't believe in it.

462

: 00:22:32

It's like, I'm trying to keep my job too.

463

: 00:22:34

So talk a little and

then finish your story.

464

: 00:22:36

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.

465

: 00:22:37

So, I mean, listen, he

cared about people, right?

466

: 00:22:40

That wasn't the issue, right?

467

: 00:22:41

Right.

468

: 00:22:42

Um, and so I went at him the first time

and he wasn't particularly interested.

469

: 00:22:46

I went at him a second time.

470

: 00:22:47

He wasn't particularly interested.

471

: 00:22:49

I, I went at him a third time and he

said, well, I'm concerned about this.

472

: 00:22:52

I said, Amen.

473

: 00:22:54

Hallelujah.

474

: 00:22:55

I got an opening here.

475

: 00:22:56

Right.

476

: 00:22:57

And so it changed some of the language.

477

: 00:22:58

Um, and, and we worked it.

478

: 00:23:00

Now understand this was not a powerful

community that was demanding this,

479

: 00:23:05

this was just Peter Ian is thing.

480

: 00:23:08

Right.

481

: 00:23:08

This is one man.

482

: 00:23:09

Yeah.

483

: 00:23:10

Tony Tidbit: One man one, exactly.

484

: 00:23:11

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: That.

485

: 00:23:11

Believed in it, understood

it, and knew it was important.

486

: 00:23:14

Exactly.

487

: 00:23:14

Right.

488

: 00:23:14

Exactly.

489

: 00:23:15

That's all it was, was one person

that cared enough, um, you know,

490

: 00:23:19

to, to fight for a community that.

491

: 00:23:23

being, I don't know, um, considered

valued or paid attention to, I guess.

492

: 00:23:27

And we're suffering for that, right?

493

: 00:23:29

So I went out, I mean, and by the

way, this is a lesson for anyone

494

: 00:23:32

that's advocating, advocate, go at it.

495

: 00:23:38

And if you said no, that doesn't,

that's not the end of it, man.

496

: 00:23:41

You got to go back again

and you go back again.

497

: 00:23:43

If you believe in it, go back.

498

: 00:23:45

Now you don't have to cause trouble.

499

: 00:23:47

You don't have to cause terror.

500

: 00:23:48

You don't have to be a jerk, right?

501

: 00:23:51

But go and advocate again.

502

: 00:23:53

Don't take no for an answer.

503

: 00:23:54

If it's the right thing to

do, you should go back again.

504

: 00:23:56

And if they say no after 10 times,

maybe you got, you know, maybe

505

: 00:23:59

there's only so much you can do.

506

: 00:24:00

But the fact is, don't stop.

507

: 00:24:02

And I went back three or four times.

508

: 00:24:04

And the speaker said, okay, let's do it.

509

: 00:24:06

And we created this study that we had.

510

: 00:24:09

I'm telling you, man, we had

hearings across the state.

511

: 00:24:12

We probably about 50

people on the commission.

512

: 00:24:15

We heard from experts around the

state and around the country.

513

: 00:24:17

We issued a report in

: 2007

514

: 00:24:21

And it's establishment of the data of

what's happening in communities of color

515

: 00:24:25

and ethnic communities and the barriers.

516

: 00:24:27

And the insurance issues

and so many and their living

517

: 00:24:30

conditions and where they live.

518

: 00:24:32

Do they live, you know, do

they live in parts of town that

519

: 00:24:35

are closer to the highways?

520

: 00:24:36

And you've got particular matter

that are affecting their, you know,

521

: 00:24:38

all these things, you know, the,

the, the issue of healthy eating.

522

: 00:24:43

I mean, we went into all that stuff.

523

: 00:24:45

That was amazing.

524

: 00:24:46

We did it.

525

: 00:24:47

You know, the sad thing though, Tony

and Chris is no one really cared.

526

: 00:24:51

The study was published.

527

: 00:24:52

I was really proud and no one did

much about it because quite honestly,

528

: 00:24:56

a lot needed to be done about it.

529

: 00:24:58

Now, the saddest part of this is that

what, you know, 25 years later or what

530

: 00:25:04

almost, you know, um, now, um, there's

a new commission to study racial and

531

: 00:25:09

ethnic minority health disparities.

532

: 00:25:12

My gosh.

533

: 00:25:13

Just look, my report, my report,

it's as valuable and important

534

: 00:25:19

today as it was back then.

535

: 00:25:20

You don't need to go restudy

it, just do something about it.

536

: 00:25:23

And that's what I feel frustrated

about is that people aren't stepping

537

: 00:25:26

up and doing something about it in a

way that would matter to communities.

538

: 00:25:30

Tony Tidbit: Right.

539

: 00:25:31

Right.

540

: 00:25:32

You know, my friend, so, and

again, that's, that, that's

541

: 00:25:35

pretty much in every industry.

542

: 00:25:37

I hate to say it right.

543

: 00:25:38

That, you know, you get a

champion that's really pushing

544

: 00:25:42

something that they believe in.

545

: 00:25:43

Um, it's, they see certain inequities,

things that could be fixed.

546

: 00:25:50

Um, we finally convinced the powers to

be, to jump into it and let's do it.

547

: 00:25:55

And then they finally say, okay,

you know what, let's do it.

548

: 00:25:58

And then when you get there and

you get all the information, It

549

: 00:26:01

ends up sitting and nobody never

does anything in 20 years later.

550

: 00:26:05

You still got the same problem, right?

551

: 00:26:07

Same thing.

552

: 00:26:07

Same thing.

553

: 00:26:08

So, so when, so based on that,

my friend, um, knowing that

554

: 00:26:14

you cared about your community.

555

: 00:26:16

Right.

556

: 00:26:16

And knowing that this was an issue

that you, you champion and push

557

: 00:26:21

and yes, you got them to do it,

but not, not a lot of things came

558

: 00:26:26

out of it, but you didn't stop.

559

: 00:26:28

So talk a little bit more about the things

that you went on that you could control

560

: 00:26:33

that you could do to make a difference.

561

: 00:26:35

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yep.

562

: 00:26:35

So, I mean, listen, we did

things that impact the community.

563

: 00:26:40

We do things that impact.

564

: 00:26:42

population.

565

: 00:26:43

We do things that impact the

law enforcement profession.

566

: 00:26:47

So, you know, like one of the

things that I really love about this

567

: 00:26:49

job is you get to be innovative.

568

: 00:26:51

You get to try new things,

you get to collect data.

569

: 00:26:54

And by the way, if the data

shows the program wasn't

570

: 00:26:56

efficacious, it didn't work.

571

: 00:26:58

Then you can get rid of the program and

or revamp it and find a new program,

572

: 00:27:01

which we've done many times on this.

573

: 00:27:03

So we started with, um, probably our

very first specialty unit because

574

: 00:27:07

it was a culture in my facility.

575

: 00:27:09

Um, That was, um, uh, probably

not as open about new progressive

576

: 00:27:13

or specialty units, right?

577

: 00:27:14

It was sort of a, it was just a

traditional corrections mentality.

578

: 00:27:18

And so we started with a veterans unit.

579

: 00:27:19

Um, I, I felt like our officers would buy

into this because it was about veterans.

580

: 00:27:24

It was very supportive of veterans.

581

: 00:27:26

Uh, the only, the only kind of daring

part I'd say where it pushed the envelope

582

: 00:27:29

a little bit was that I insisted that

we accept veterans that have been

583

: 00:27:33

discharged, uh, uh, dishonorably or other

than honorably, because quite honestly,

584

: 00:27:38

if you raise your hand in defense of

our country, I don't care why you're

585

: 00:27:41

in there or how you were discharged.

586

: 00:27:44

I'm going to, I'm going

to serve you, right?

587

: 00:27:45

And I just think that was really

important that we honor those that

588

: 00:27:48

served our country and raise their

hand to protect us with their lives.

589

: 00:27:51

And then it's, then it moved on to,

uh, uh, medic medication assisted

590

: 00:27:56

treatment for the treatment of opioids.

591

: 00:27:57

We've got a terrible problem

in Massachusetts and greater,

592

: 00:28:00

um, a New England area.

593

: 00:28:02

Uh, and so we started a medication

assisted treatment program

594

: 00:28:05

about 11 or 12 years ago.

595

: 00:28:07

That was really cutting edge at the time.

596

: 00:28:09

I brought this from my

state house experience.

597

: 00:28:12

Uh, we became one of the 1st in the

country to use medication assisted

598

: 00:28:15

treatment in a carceral facility.

599

: 00:28:17

And that has worked out to be,

it's become a nation leading model.

600

: 00:28:22

Actually, we're still used as

a model as to how to, um, to

601

: 00:28:25

create in these, these systems.

602

: 00:28:28

And then 1 of the things that I was

really proud of was from I mentioned

603

: 00:28:31

from my own experience as a young adult.

604

: 00:28:34

I created a young adult offender

program, the first of its kind in a jail.

605

: 00:28:38

So treating those from 18 through

26 years old, um, uh, in a different

606

: 00:28:42

way, a whole remaking of this, uh, of

the way that we deal with corrections

607

: 00:28:47

with this age group, you know, these,

these young men are, you know, all the

608

: 00:28:50

science has shown us that they're later

in maturation than we believe, right?

609

: 00:28:54

We think that they're all adults

by the time they're 18 or 21.

610

: 00:28:58

Right.

611

: 00:28:58

That ain't true.

612

: 00:28:59

Right.

613

: 00:29:00

Um, we, that they, that they,

uh, engage in riskier behaviors,

614

: 00:29:04

especially the young men.

615

: 00:29:05

It's just kind of a natural thing to do.

616

: 00:29:07

Um, that they, um, they don't understand

the consequences of their actions.

617

: 00:29:12

Something that I didn't understand,

even though I wasn't justice involved.

618

: 00:29:16

So that you're doing things you

don't realize how it's going to

619

: 00:29:18

mess up the rest of your life.

620

: 00:29:19

Uh, and the fact that they have

higher rates of recidivism and,

621

: 00:29:22

uh, and problematic behavior.

622

: 00:29:24

They also have higher rates of, for

those that are incarcerated, much higher

623

: 00:29:27

rates of trauma in their households.

624

: 00:29:29

Right?

625

: 00:29:29

So this is something that

makes them different.

626

: 00:29:31

So we started this unit using cognitive

behavioral therapies, a whole different

627

: 00:29:35

way to look at it, um, and address them.

628

: 00:29:38

It's a unit where, uh, Um, you know,

a lot of the gang affiliated folks

629

: 00:29:42

come in, they leave their colors

at the door, they make it work.

630

: 00:29:46

It's a unit, uh, that the

officers are much more available.

631

: 00:29:49

Um, they're around speaking to

individuals one on one place.

632

: 00:29:54

You wouldn't really see that

in the rest of the facility.

633

: 00:29:56

Uh, and the recidivism rate is

remarkably low for this age group.

634

: 00:30:00

I think it's around 15%.

635

: 00:30:01

So 85 percent don't recidivate and that

and that just has led to more and more,

636

: 00:30:06

you know, Whether it's our women's

pre release or family support services

637

: 00:30:09

program, which was really, um, I'm

really proud of because one of the things

638

: 00:30:13

is we think about we're so focused on

the person that's incarcerated, right?

639

: 00:30:18

Getting them better.

640

: 00:30:19

We think about them a lot.

641

: 00:30:20

We forget about the victim

of the crime, right?

642

: 00:30:22

We just don't even think

about them very much.

643

: 00:30:24

But the one group that we never think

about at all is the family members

644

: 00:30:28

of the incarcerated individual.

645

: 00:30:30

So we actually support the family members.

646

: 00:30:31

For more information, visit www.

647

: 00:30:33

FEMA.

648

: 00:30:33

gov through educational opportunities

and, uh, and, and, and, um, instructional

649

: 00:30:38

opportunities, um, and even Thanksgiving

meals and like, um, uh, book bag drives

650

: 00:30:45

and all this sort of stuff to show that

we care about the family and support

651

: 00:30:48

that family because, you know, that

family is the most important part when

652

: 00:30:52

these, you know, men and women come

back out, um, and that family is going

653

: 00:30:56

to be the one that supports them.

654

: 00:30:58

Um, and, and that's, that's crucially

important that we save that family.

655

: 00:31:02

Also, it shows.

656

: 00:31:03

One of the things that people

should understand is, uh, I call

657

: 00:31:05

it trickle down corrections.

658

: 00:31:07

Those, um, those that have, uh,

those children of incarcerated

659

: 00:31:12

individuals are much more likely to

have failures in education, truancy

660

: 00:31:16

in education, sociopathic behavior,

and higher rates of incarceration.

661

: 00:31:20

So if we can actually help support the

family and stem that, that next trend

662

: 00:31:24

in that generation, then we've done a

lot for a lot of generations thereafter.

663

: 00:31:30

Chris P. Reed: You said something

earlier that's, that's resonated

664

: 00:31:32

with me and you kind of reinforced it

throughout the different things that

665

: 00:31:35

you're talking about, programs and such.

666

: 00:31:37

Um, how difficult is it?

667

: 00:31:39

And this is me as a, as a citizen, and

I'm sure plenty of our audience, how

668

: 00:31:43

difficult is it for you as a servant

to not accept the uncomplicated?

669

: 00:31:48

No.

670

: 00:31:48

So let me, let me frame that up for you.

671

: 00:31:50

You went in and you said, I presented it.

672

: 00:31:53

And he said, no, and then you

said something that threw me

673

: 00:31:56

off, which is I represented it.

674

: 00:31:57

And he said, no, and I represent it.

675

: 00:31:59

So because the no was just a simple no.

676

: 00:32:01

And it wasn't no, because of this

reason, that reason, this reason,

677

: 00:32:04

that you were like, okay, I'm not just

going to give up and go away quietly.

678

: 00:32:07

First of all, I salute you

for that destitutiveness, but

679

: 00:32:11

also how difficult is that?

680

: 00:32:13

And how common is that?

681

: 00:32:15

So, oh, you got

682

: 00:32:16

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

some, you got some noise there.

683

: 00:32:18

Tony, you're going to play.

684

: 00:32:19

Tony Tidbit: I was giving

you a round of applause, but

685

: 00:32:22

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: we'll

686

: 00:32:22

Tony Tidbit: go ahead

687

: 00:32:23

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

and do your thing,

688

: 00:32:23

Tony Tidbit: buddy.

689

: 00:32:25

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Listen, I just,

690

: 00:32:28

if people don't advocate for others,

then who's going to advocate for them?

691

: 00:32:32

Right?

692

: 00:32:32

I've just seen too many people that are.

693

: 00:32:35

That are supposed to be leading on an

issue and then they're told no and they

694

: 00:32:38

just quietly go away And there's nothing

more offensive to me than that If it's

695

: 00:32:42

a good idea, then you've got to go fight

for it and you don't have to be a jerk

696

: 00:32:45

about it You don't have to be antagonistic

or get into fights with people but at

697

: 00:32:50

least go back a few more times and and

I was able to show him that You know,

698

: 00:32:55

it was important It would serve our

communities, including his community.

699

: 00:32:59

Um, and that, and there was

not going to be a money, you

700

: 00:33:02

know, a money component to this.

701

: 00:33:04

And if he was worried like, oh,

we're going to have to find this

702

: 00:33:06

and going to cost this much more in

our system, not to worry about that.

703

: 00:33:09

And I knew he was a good man, right?

704

: 00:33:12

I just needed to kind of get through

him a couple of times and, and, I've

705

: 00:33:16

seen many, um, um, elected people

that will go like in front of the

706

: 00:33:22

cameras to go advocate for something.

707

: 00:33:23

But once the cameras light shut

off, they just kind of go home.

708

: 00:33:27

They don't, they don't, you

know, they, they drop the issue.

709

: 00:33:29

There's nothing more offensive to

me in policy leadership than, you

710

: 00:33:33

know, uh, lifting something up when

the camera's around and they're just

711

: 00:33:36

dropping it when they disappear.

712

: 00:33:38

Many of my things that I got done took

me, you know, 10, 11, 12 years to do in

713

: 00:33:43

the legislature, which is a long, brutal

period of time to stay on something.

714

: 00:33:47

But I'm really proud that I stayed on

them because I was getting frustrated.

715

: 00:33:50

Like, it makes common sense.

716

: 00:33:51

Let's just do it.

717

: 00:33:52

Why, why is this not getting done?

718

: 00:33:54

So I, I just think it's a, people have to

be strong and passionate and, and caring.

719

: 00:34:00

Don't be afraid.

720

: 00:34:00

Listen, We shouldn't be afraid

of being told no, right?

721

: 00:34:03

Right.

722

: 00:34:04

Opportunity to re engage.

723

: 00:34:06

Tony Tidbit: Right, right.

724

: 00:34:07

You know, my friend, you, let's, let's,

because you've done a lot of great things.

725

: 00:34:12

in Middlesex County in Massachusetts.

726

: 00:34:15

Um, and maybe a lot of

people are not aware of.

727

: 00:34:17

So let's talk, let's dive into some of the

programs and stuff that you came up with

728

: 00:34:22

that helped change the lives of not only

the, the incarcerated, but their families.

729

: 00:34:29

Um, even the people that, you know,

actually are in the system, um,

730

: 00:34:34

that, you know, actually hold them

accountable, put them behind bars.

731

: 00:34:37

You've done a lot of stuff.

732

: 00:34:38

So you've come up with.

733

: 00:34:40

the family support service unit, right?

734

: 00:34:43

Talk a little bit about that.

735

: 00:34:44

Um, and then I want to dive into the,

the, the Frederick Douglass project

736

: 00:34:49

that you guys

737

: 00:34:50

put together.

738

: 00:34:50

I think it's fascinating.

739

: 00:34:52

I think it's awesome, but it

speaks to the whole of everything

740

: 00:34:55

that you're bringing together.

741

: 00:34:57

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah.

742

: 00:34:57

So, um, as I said, part of the reason I

like, I was really pleased to be invited

743

: 00:35:02

on your podcast is because I think it's

important that people know what goes

744

: 00:35:06

on behind the bars, so to speak, right?

745

: 00:35:09

On the other side of the wall,

on the other side of the wall,

746

: 00:35:11

people don't really know.

747

: 00:35:12

They don't understand.

748

: 00:35:14

Um, and so the family support services,

again, what we did was created a,

749

: 00:35:17

an entity where we were able to

connect with the loved ones, usually

750

: 00:35:23

their wives, girlfriends, partners,

whomever, and their children, right?

751

: 00:35:28

Because mostly we've got men up here.

752

: 00:35:30

Um, and, and, and these are the

people that love these guys, right?

753

: 00:35:36

So all the people that they were

running, ripping and running with

754

: 00:35:39

on the outside, you know, they're

not visiting him up in my jail.

755

: 00:35:43

They're not throwing any

money in their canteen.

756

: 00:35:45

They're not throwing any

money in their phone fund.

757

: 00:35:47

Right.

758

: 00:35:48

You know, they'll be welcoming them

like open arms when they get back

759

: 00:35:52

on the outside, cause they want

to rip and run with them again.

760

: 00:35:54

Right.

761

: 00:35:54

Yeah.

762

: 00:35:55

I mean, Hey, um, you

know, um, my boy, right.

763

: 00:35:59

But, but so all the people that are

actually visiting are generally, you know,

764

: 00:36:02

not all of these, but you know, they're

generally grandmothers, mothers, sisters.

765

: 00:36:07

Girlfriends, you know, um, wives, it's all

the women that care about these people.

766

: 00:36:13

Um, and they're the ones that are

struggling, you know, emotionally,

767

: 00:36:16

socioeconomically, right.

768

: 00:36:18

And all these ways that.

769

: 00:36:19

No one remembers that they're stuck on

the outside raising a family while their

770

: 00:36:24

partner is on the inside You know, I just

realized like, you know, you know how I

771

: 00:36:28

realized this actually as i'm thinking

about this I would have people call me up

772

: 00:36:33

say hey sheriff or they know me, right?

773

: 00:36:35

So they were someone of a I don't want

to say that i'm on a higher status

774

: 00:36:39

But some of the status that would

know a high level elected official

775

: 00:36:42

or an elected official, right?

776

: 00:36:44

And they so they'd call me because they

knew You that their kid was in trouble

777

: 00:36:48

in my jail, or they had someone that

they knew whose kid was in my jail.

778

: 00:36:53

Um, so it was only people that knew

me or knew someone that knew me.

779

: 00:36:57

So meaning, you know, I get

these calls all year long.

780

: 00:36:59

Now, I love these calls because

I get to engage with the family,

781

: 00:37:02

tell them what's going on.

782

: 00:37:04

You know, it's okay.

783

: 00:37:05

Things are good.

784

: 00:37:06

They're being treated well.

785

: 00:37:07

Find out if they had any needs, like,

You know, they needed glasses or hearing

786

: 00:37:12

aids or they were struggling with mental

health issues that we should know about.

787

: 00:37:16

That was always really good to know.

788

: 00:37:17

But I realized that there were

thousands of other people that didn't

789

: 00:37:21

know me or knew someone that knew

me to be able to get a call from me.

790

: 00:37:25

So I said, we should.

791

: 00:37:26

That's not right.

792

: 00:37:26

That's not equitable.

793

: 00:37:27

So.

794

: 00:37:28

That's when we created

this, this position.

795

: 00:37:31

And it's, we've had thousands of

calls with families, dozens of

796

: 00:37:35

training opportunities with families.

797

: 00:37:37

We've done family reconciliation programs

with a community college in the area

798

: 00:37:42

to help kind of to fix the frayed

relationships in many ways, right?

799

: 00:37:49

We can find out if the, if

the, if the loved one is like.

800

: 00:37:54

Having trouble emotionally because

the family member will tell us.

801

: 00:37:58

So, you know, one of the things you

worry about in a carceral facility

802

: 00:38:00

is suicide or self harm, right?

803

: 00:38:02

Some of you always worry about.

804

: 00:38:03

Now, we've got someone to say,

I'm speaking with my husband.

805

: 00:38:05

I'm speaking with my

boyfriend, whatever it is.

806

: 00:38:07

He seems to be in a bad place

or, you know, his mom died or his

807

: 00:38:10

dad died or someone like that.

808

: 00:38:12

You know, please just make sure you watch.

809

: 00:38:13

So we get to care for

them better that way, too.

810

: 00:38:16

It's a remarkable opportunity.

811

: 00:38:17

Now we're also having family

contact visits with minor children

812

: 00:38:21

in a room that we created to be

like, very children friendly.

813

: 00:38:24

We had an artist, you know, paint,

you know, characters on the walls.

814

: 00:38:30

It's really a beautiful thing

when you see a family in there.

815

: 00:38:33

And the whole thing about that

unit, by the way, is not that you

816

: 00:38:36

get to visit your, your partner

and the kids are running around

817

: 00:38:39

watching TV or playing with crayons.

818

: 00:38:41

The fact is, is if we see that we go

and we tap on the shoulder, hey, No, no,

819

: 00:38:46

the idea is to engage with the Children.

820

: 00:38:48

It's not for the contact visit with

your partner and the kids are there.

821

: 00:38:52

This is about the Children.

822

: 00:38:53

We've also had many the Department

of Children's Services visits

823

: 00:38:58

court visits overseen in here too.

824

: 00:39:01

So that's really one of the most

rewarding, like really one of

825

: 00:39:04

the most rewarding things that

I found that we do up here.

826

: 00:39:08

Chris P. Reed: Let me let me.

827

: 00:39:09

Educate you on the nature of criminal

justice because you obviously missed

828

: 00:39:14

something in your law degrees and your

times on the job when people commit

829

: 00:39:18

crimes, they are dehumanized and

the people that are affected by the

830

: 00:39:25

mistake that that person may deserve

to suffer as much as that person does.

831

: 00:39:29

And for whatever reason, you've decided.

832

: 00:39:31

That you understand the shrapnel that

occurs when somebody makes a mistake and

833

: 00:39:36

you shouldn't have to throw the baby out

with the bathwater, so to speak, and have

834

: 00:39:39

created programs that allow for these

people to re humanize and understand and

835

: 00:39:45

actually rehabilitate due to the fact

that everybody hasn't given up on them

836

: 00:39:50

and they don't have to live this out.

837

: 00:39:52

In a perpetual punishment, but they'll

find the best, most motivated, um, mature

838

: 00:39:59

way of being encouraged to come out

on the other side of this because they

839

: 00:40:03

realize people still give a damn about me.

840

: 00:40:05

People are still going to show up.

841

: 00:40:06

And these are the people that I'm

going one day at a time for to be

842

: 00:40:10

a good, a good civil, uh, inmate.

843

: 00:40:15

You're going, you're creating behavioral

dynamics, you're creating a sense

844

: 00:40:18

of pride and, and, and, and you're

not institutionalizing these folks.

845

: 00:40:22

Um, why hasn't somebody stopped you, sir?

846

: 00:40:28

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Cause

847

: 00:40:28

Chris P. Reed: that's

not what this thing was

848

: 00:40:30

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: designed

849

: 00:40:30

Chris P. Reed: to

850

: 00:40:30

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: do.

851

: 00:40:32

You said, Chris is so true though.

852

: 00:40:34

Right.

853

: 00:40:34

You know, if you treat people like human

beings, they'll behave like human beings.

854

: 00:40:38

And, um, and this is the other

thing that's really interesting

855

: 00:40:40

about corrections is We've prepared

the incarcerated individual.

856

: 00:40:44

For re entry into the

community and family.

857

: 00:40:46

We give them anger management, family

dynamics, educational opportunities,

858

: 00:40:50

but we never prepare the family For the

entrance of the incarcerated individual

859

: 00:40:56

who by the way has been locked up for

a period of time Is probably frustrated

860

: 00:41:00

and anxious and trying to get back out

in the world and scared and not prepared

861

: 00:41:04

as fully as anyone wants for re entry

And so we we prepare that person But we

862

: 00:41:10

don't prepare the family to say, hey,

this is what they're going to be like.

863

: 00:41:13

This is how it's going to be.

864

: 00:41:14

This is how to help them,

uh, almost creating a support

865

: 00:41:18

service volunteer on the outside.

866

: 00:41:21

And by the way, the other thing I think is

really good about this program is that it

867

: 00:41:24

reminds the people that are incarcerated,

like, look at you, man, you're in

868

: 00:41:28

jail because you, you did crimes.

869

: 00:41:31

But the damn sheriff's office is helping

you with your family right now, right?

870

: 00:41:35

So I just think that kind of makes them

mindful of what they've done how it's

871

: 00:41:38

impacted their loved ones And who we

are as an organization that wants to

872

: 00:41:43

support them In a deeper way than just

giving them programs on the inside,

873

: 00:41:48

Tony Tidbit: right?

874

: 00:41:48

And then and that's from the family

dynamic, but then you also Help the

875

: 00:41:53

inmates Prepare for reentry and and that's

your Frederick Frederick project, right?

876

: 00:42:00

And which I was enamored by.

877

: 00:42:02

I read the article.

878

: 00:42:03

I'm going to read an excerpt out of the

Boston Globe about this, but I thought

879

: 00:42:07

that, you know, this, this 316, You

know, um, uh, angle that you're taking

880

: 00:42:14

from the inmate, the family, and then

also the community as well, getting them

881

: 00:42:18

prepared for the inmate to come back.

882

: 00:42:21

Right.

883

: 00:42:22

But I love what you, what you stated here.

884

: 00:42:23

Right.

885

: 00:42:24

And I'm going to, this is a quote

out of the, uh, uh, Boston Globe.

886

: 00:42:27

This goes back to December of 2023.

887

: 00:42:30

And this is what you said.

888

: 00:42:31

Frederick Douglas was the most

photographic man of his era.

889

: 00:42:34

He had his photo taken over 160 times.

890

: 00:42:37

He was the Because he felt it was

important for people to see a free

891

: 00:42:40

black man and to see his success.

892

: 00:42:43

All right, and that's some of the

things that you told this group behind

893

: 00:42:46

the inspiration of this project.

894

: 00:42:48

And then you said, these

people are not monsters.

895

: 00:42:51

They're not mugshots you saw on the news.

896

: 00:42:55

They're human beings who make

mistakes and are paying a steep price.

897

: 00:43:00

But who are almost certainly coming

home and we want them to succeed.

898

: 00:43:04

Okay.

899

: 00:43:05

So, buddy, I mean, to

Chris's point, I don't know.

900

: 00:43:08

No, and that that ain't

in criminal justice.

901

: 00:43:11

1 on 1 from a prosecuting standpoint

is lock the key up and go away.

902

: 00:43:15

And then if they're breathing,

when it's time for them to come

903

: 00:43:18

out, then we'll do something.

904

: 00:43:20

So speak to this program that you're

doing how you're having the inmates.

905

: 00:43:24

Get together, they're communicating

with people from the outside, talk,

906

: 00:43:28

tell our audience about it and the

effect that it's having with the

907

: 00:43:32

inmate, the family, and the community.

908

: 00:43:34

BEP Narrator: If you like what you hear

and want to join us on this journey

909

: 00:43:36

of making uncomfortable conversations

comfortable, please subscribe to a

910

: 00:43:40

Black Executive Perspective podcast

on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

911

: 00:43:45

or wherever you get your podcasts.

912

: 00:43:46

Hit subscribe now to stay connected

for more episodes that challenge,

913

: 00:43:50

inspire, and lead the change.

914

: 00:43:53

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: So thank you

very much for bringing that program up.

915

: 00:43:55

I'm really proud of it.

916

: 00:43:56

And by the way, the thing about Frederick

Douglass, when he was photographed

917

: 00:43:59

so many times, People should not

misunderstand the fact this was not

918

: 00:44:04

ego that made him do this, right?

919

: 00:44:06

As I said, he did it because he

wanted people to see an image

920

: 00:44:09

of a free black man, right?

921

: 00:44:11

And it wasn't easy to do.

922

: 00:44:14

Today, you go in front of a

camera, you take a picture.

923

: 00:44:17

Back then, there's a reason

people didn't smile in those

924

: 00:44:20

photos because those exposures

sometimes took 15 and 20 minutes.

925

: 00:44:25

So you had to sit still

for 15 to 20 minutes.

926

: 00:44:27

Tony and Chris, you guys got

beautiful smiles, but I don't

927

: 00:44:30

think you can hold that thing for

15 straight minutes, man, right?

928

: 00:44:32

So exactly so that's why like he had this

stern face, but it's kind of interesting

929

: 00:44:36

So it was not it was a labor of love that

he did these photos He wanted people to

930

: 00:44:40

see who he was and that's why we want

us people on the inside to see Who these

931

: 00:44:45

people are now, something that I've always

said since I became sheriff is that a

932

: 00:44:49

jail is not just a fortress on a hill.

933

: 00:44:52

It's part of a community.

934

: 00:44:53

And if you don't, if you don't treat it

as part of the community and have the

935

: 00:44:57

community's involvement and understanding

of its mission, then it will fail.

936

: 00:45:00

Right?

937

: 00:45:00

So this is a great way to do this.

938

: 00:45:02

Now, I take tours, you know, we bring

in legislators and people as much as I

939

: 00:45:07

can, because I want them to see a well

run, um, Correctional facility, you

940

: 00:45:11

know, you see so many on on on the TV.

941

: 00:45:15

Those are not well run facilities.

942

: 00:45:17

Right?

943

: 00:45:18

I mean, you know, the camera crews

would come up to my place and they'd

944

: 00:45:21

like, just go home and say, if there's

nothing to see here, there's nothing

945

: 00:45:24

interesting going on here, which

is the beauty of good corrections.

946

: 00:45:27

Right?

947

: 00:45:28

Um, and so, so, so if

so, this is a way that.

948

: 00:45:33

It started with Professor Mark Howard from

Georgetown, and he had this idea about

949

: 00:45:38

bringing people from the public inside

a carceral facility in a systematic way.

950

: 00:45:43

And so what we do is we have about

15 or so people from the outside

951

: 00:45:48

community is the way we call it.

952

: 00:45:51

And they'll come to our facility,

we'll give them a quick tour

953

: 00:45:54

of our facility, some of the

programs that we've spoken about.

954

: 00:45:57

Then we'll bring them down into

a larger area where they'll

955

: 00:45:59

connect with 10, maybe 15 people.

956

: 00:46:02

Inside participants, we sit around in

a large circle, usually facilitated

957

: 00:46:08

by Mark Howard or someone else.

958

: 00:46:11

We start to do some icebreaker.

959

: 00:46:12

We do in quick introductions, some

icebreaker questions, just to start a

960

: 00:46:17

little bit of discussion, the purpose

of this, and then break into we break

961

: 00:46:22

them into small groups, 4 or 5 or

6, maybe, and we serve some food.

962

: 00:46:25

We actually allow them to

break bread with each other.

963

: 00:46:27

Right?

964

: 00:46:28

And then they have these very intimate

conversations about what life is like

965

: 00:46:31

on the inside, Um, what, what, you know,

what troubles people on the outside,

966

: 00:46:36

the inside, how they ended up there,

what are they looking forward to do?

967

: 00:46:39

Tell me about their families.

968

: 00:46:40

Right?

969

: 00:46:41

And then you come back into the larger

group, and now you share those experiences

970

: 00:46:45

in the larger group, and then the

outside participants gather and go home.

971

: 00:46:49

The inside participants

go back to their units.

972

: 00:46:51

This is a remarkable, um, Program and

it has brought so much humanity to what

973

: 00:46:56

we do So for the people on the outside,

it gives them an understanding that

974

: 00:47:00

the people on the inside are really

not that much different They had a

975

: 00:47:04

really bad problem with drugs Or a

really significant mental health issue,

976

: 00:47:10

or it was a really bad day, right?

977

: 00:47:12

Um, or, or it was just, or sometimes

honestly, there's a people with a

978

: 00:47:16

history of criminal behaviors too, right?

979

: 00:47:18

Um, and for the people on the inside,

it's really important because they get

980

: 00:47:22

to understand that the public, the people

on the outside actually care about them.

981

: 00:47:26

Like, I didn't realize the

impact it had on them as much

982

: 00:47:29

until we started the program.

983

: 00:47:30

They say, Oh, someone cares about me.

984

: 00:47:32

I feel like I matter again.

985

: 00:47:34

And this brought an understanding like

we had people come to our facility

986

: 00:47:37

that had looks on their faces like,

like they smelled something bad.

987

: 00:47:40

Like they were, they were immediately knew

that they were going to be under pressed.

988

: 00:47:45

They were going to be angry

at the way that Incarcerated

989

: 00:47:48

people were being treated or

the programming or the facility.

990

: 00:47:51

They had this look on their face Like they

were not they were they were preparing

991

: 00:47:54

to be mad And maybe that's why they want

to come in so they could just see how

992

: 00:47:58

mad they should be about what's going on

inside And then as they left coming out

993

: 00:48:03

with big smiles on their faces writing

an email to me the very next day And then

994

: 00:48:07

we've done work with these some of these

organizations to better the lives of the

995

: 00:48:12

people inside to a miraculous program

that was brought to us by Mark Howard,

996

: 00:48:16

making a difference in a significant way.

997

: 00:48:19

Um, and it's really good for

community, but it's good for

998

: 00:48:22

that inside community as well

999

: 00:48:25

Chris P. Reed: with such a significant

philosophical and psychological shift.

: 1000

00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:34,610

As we talked about, people have Uh,

thoughts about the system and, and how

: 1001

00:48:34,610 --> 00:48:37,820

people are when they're in there and

who's in there, and things of that nature.

: 1002

00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,360

How have you been able to retract, to

attract recruits or, or build up that

: 1003

00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,890

staff of individuals, particularly people

of color, women, you know, people that

: 1004

00:48:46,890 --> 00:48:49,110

may be vulnerable to some of these crimes.

: 1005

00:48:49,230 --> 00:48:53,700

How have you gotten them to participate

and being able to keep up that momentum?

: 1006

00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,070

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Yeah, so, um, so as far as the

: 1007

00:48:56,070 --> 00:48:57,390

participation and the engagement.

: 1008

00:48:58,300 --> 00:48:59,950

I mean, the first unit was different.

: 1009

00:49:00,020 --> 00:49:02,920

I think people were not sure what to

expect, but it used to be a culture

: 1010

00:49:03,470 --> 00:49:06,060

that exists in many other carceral

facilities of people just walking

: 1011

00:49:06,060 --> 00:49:10,720

up and down a tier or walking around

a pod, you know, just making sure,

: 1012

00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,249

you know, there's no fighting.

: 1013

00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:14,459

There's no open drug use.

: 1014

00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:16,229

There's no self harm, right?

: 1015

00:49:16,229 --> 00:49:20,620

You know, the basic stuff of what what

you'd see in many carceral facilities

: 1016

00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:22,220

and now because the specialty units.

: 1017

00:49:22,620 --> 00:49:25,930

It took the first one with the veterans

that was accepted and then it went into

: 1018

00:49:25,930 --> 00:49:29,500

the medication assisted treatment Which

was a big change for them and then it

: 1019

00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:33,630

went into the young adult offenders, which

was a huger change then we brought in

: 1020

00:49:34,249 --> 00:49:39,169

pre release women Um, it was another huge

change What we found was that with each

: 1021

00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:42,149

new program we brought in because people

started seeing oh, there's something

: 1022

00:49:42,149 --> 00:49:47,770

to there's something that's Something

more rewarding, maybe more interesting

: 1023

00:49:47,810 --> 00:49:50,440

about doing this work more engaging.

: 1024

00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,400

And so they started actually

signing up for more and more of

: 1025

00:49:54,410 --> 00:49:55,970

the training to do the newer units.

: 1026

00:49:56,550 --> 00:50:01,690

And as far as the representation,

yeah, you want the, the, the.

: 1027

00:50:02,115 --> 00:50:05,585

The community, the inside

community in the outside community

: 1028

00:50:05,595 --> 00:50:08,945

and our staff to be basically

representative of each other, right?

: 1029

00:50:08,945 --> 00:50:13,905

You can't have, you know, 1 race inside

and 1 race outside or vice versa.

: 1030

00:50:13,905 --> 00:50:14,634

You got to have it.

: 1031

00:50:14,634 --> 00:50:15,474

So it's reflective.

: 1032

00:50:15,475 --> 00:50:19,234

So, you know, in our most current

basic training academy, we had.

: 1033

00:50:19,690 --> 00:50:25,840

Um, 43 percent were white, 22 percent

were black, 22 percent were hispanic,

: 1034

00:50:26,070 --> 00:50:29,530

and that basically mimics what's going

on in our communities at the same time.

: 1035

00:50:29,829 --> 00:50:34,629

Uh, and by the way, it's really important

that you have women inside, um, in these,

: 1036

00:50:34,690 --> 00:50:39,800

in these roles too, because they're, you

know, they're, they're, they're in many

: 1037

00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,570

ways better or at least as good as some of

the best men in managing the population.

: 1038

00:50:44,740 --> 00:50:47,410

Not physically necessarily,

but using their brains.

: 1039

00:50:47,610 --> 00:50:51,620

Using communication skills, um,

and they're an important part

: 1040

00:50:51,780 --> 00:50:54,020

of making a unit successful.

: 1041

00:50:54,030 --> 00:50:57,760

When I started, the women were

really in, um, the mail room.

: 1042

00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,740

They were watching the monitors.

: 1043

00:51:00,380 --> 00:51:02,089

They were on the outside stuff.

: 1044

00:51:02,460 --> 00:51:05,180

And, um, and because of that,

too, by the way, they couldn't

: 1045

00:51:05,180 --> 00:51:09,035

get, Promotions to sergeants or

lieutenants because they weren't

: 1046

00:51:09,035 --> 00:51:10,555

experienced in the operational side.

: 1047

00:51:10,555 --> 00:51:14,135

So when you're looking for operational

sergeant, they had no experience in that.

: 1048

00:51:14,135 --> 00:51:16,475

And you couldn't do anything to judge

and say, I think they'd be good in here

: 1049

00:51:16,515 --> 00:51:17,625

because it would be brand new step.

: 1050

00:51:18,005 --> 00:51:20,385

So now we've got more women stepping up.

: 1051

00:51:20,455 --> 00:51:23,294

Our latest classes have been

more diverse than ever before.

: 1052

00:51:23,584 --> 00:51:26,375

You know, what I really love is we've got

more people from outside of the country.

: 1053

00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,270

The language is being spoken from Africa

and South America and Central America are,

: 1054

00:51:31,350 --> 00:51:33,570

are, that's stunningly varied right now.

: 1055

00:51:33,860 --> 00:51:37,630

So, you know, it's, it's the, the variance

and now they're getting a little bit older

: 1056

00:51:37,630 --> 00:51:41,440

too, which brings in a lot of maturation

and a lot of better behavior as well.

: 1057

00:51:42,850 --> 00:51:44,490

Tony Tidbit: Buddy, I

got to give it to you.

: 1058

00:51:44,709 --> 00:51:47,489

Um, you've put together

something that's special.

: 1059

00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:51,709

I would imagine, um, that

you're touching and affecting.

: 1060

00:51:52,205 --> 00:51:56,075

Positively, a lot of lives

on all sides of the triangle.

: 1061

00:51:56,575 --> 00:52:01,145

Um, and so we're so happy that you came

on to share because more people need

: 1062

00:52:01,145 --> 00:52:02,734

to know this back to Chris's point.

: 1063

00:52:03,075 --> 00:52:06,405

You know, at the end of the day,

words paint pictures, um, and when

: 1064

00:52:06,405 --> 00:52:09,815

you think of criminal justice and

you think of a sheriff, or you think

: 1065

00:52:09,815 --> 00:52:14,365

of, you know, prosecutors and, or,

you know, convicts, you think of

: 1066

00:52:14,365 --> 00:52:15,934

all the negative things, right?

: 1067

00:52:15,935 --> 00:52:20,665

And let's be fair, you know, rightfully

so in some areas, but to be honest,

: 1068

00:52:20,725 --> 00:52:25,005

right, for you to have vision, and that's

where we kick this episode off, you,

: 1069

00:52:25,035 --> 00:52:30,885

for you to be a visionary, To, you know,

play chess, not checkers and recognize

: 1070

00:52:30,885 --> 00:52:34,984

by doing this, because I would imagine

there's a backlash as well while we spend

: 1071

00:52:34,984 --> 00:52:38,474

the money on these people, you know,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but you're

: 1072

00:52:38,475 --> 00:52:43,834

seeing it as an opportunity to not only

affect the, the inmate, but affect the

: 1073

00:52:43,834 --> 00:52:48,415

community, because these people are going

to come home and then more importantly,

: 1074

00:52:48,485 --> 00:52:54,310

yeah, I think you said it earlier, the,

the return rate, So now they're going to

: 1075

00:52:54,340 --> 00:52:56,580

become, you know, productive citizens.

: 1076

00:52:56,750 --> 00:53:01,570

And even when I read the article about

the, um, Frederick Douglass project

: 1077

00:53:01,850 --> 00:53:05,740

and the, um, the group of individuals

that you talked about, how the

: 1078

00:53:05,740 --> 00:53:08,370

community people from the community

and the inmates all sat together.

: 1079

00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,549

I believe 1 of the people from

the community said, hey, I'm

: 1080

00:53:11,549 --> 00:53:13,110

open to giving this guy a job.

: 1081

00:53:13,389 --> 00:53:13,930

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: Yeah, right.

: 1082

00:53:13,930 --> 00:53:15,299

Tony Tidbit: Yeah, right.

: 1083

00:53:15,299 --> 00:53:19,240

Because they were able to break

bread and build those relationships.

: 1084

00:53:19,330 --> 00:53:21,770

So, final thoughts, my friend,

what do you want to leave with the

: 1085

00:53:21,780 --> 00:53:25,600

audience in terms of what you're

doing and what you want them to know?

: 1086

00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,340

And more importantly,

what action they can take?

: 1087

00:53:27,730 --> 00:53:29,340

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

So, um, two things.

: 1088

00:53:29,340 --> 00:53:33,040

One, I want them to remember the humanity

of the people about whom we speak.

: 1089

00:53:33,420 --> 00:53:35,435

As we said, Some of them are trouble.

: 1090

00:53:35,445 --> 00:53:39,525

Some of this, some, some of them are,

you know, not great people, right?

: 1091

00:53:39,525 --> 00:53:42,745

We have to acknowledge that there's

a lot of great people there, right?

: 1092

00:53:42,745 --> 00:53:45,485

I mean, I speak about them in this

way because I should speak about them

: 1093

00:53:45,485 --> 00:53:48,185

in the way that I do, but there's

a lot of tough people out there,

: 1094

00:53:48,475 --> 00:53:50,295

um, that really struggle, right?

: 1095

00:53:50,634 --> 00:53:52,734

But they deserve the opportunity

to be treated with dignity.

: 1096

00:53:52,735 --> 00:53:54,495

I mean, it's not my job to punish them.

: 1097

00:53:54,715 --> 00:53:57,185

I'm just supposed to hold

them and hopefully prepare

: 1098

00:53:57,185 --> 00:53:58,055

them to be better, right?

: 1099

00:53:58,115 --> 00:53:59,095

And that's my job.

: 1100

00:53:59,435 --> 00:54:02,605

And then secondly, the corrections,

uh, professionals, right?

: 1101

00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:08,570

You know, you got corrections officers

and case managers and nurses, uh,

: 1102

00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:12,510

and mental health professionals that

care for these people on the inside.

: 1103

00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:14,540

And that's a really tough job, right?

: 1104

00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,730

Um, so one thing I always say, I always

call the corrections professionals

: 1105

00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:19,370

the silent guardians of public safety.

: 1106

00:54:19,370 --> 00:54:21,119

No one really knows who

they are, what they do.

: 1107

00:54:21,385 --> 00:54:23,155

They know how to say thank

you to a police officer.

: 1108

00:54:23,155 --> 00:54:25,585

Maybe if they want to or a

firefighter or things like that

: 1109

00:54:25,585 --> 00:54:26,955

But they don't know what a co does.

: 1110

00:54:27,125 --> 00:54:30,635

They don't know who they are So if

people get to either if they know a

: 1111

00:54:30,635 --> 00:54:34,604

corrections officer Or a professional

or they meet one just to say thank you

: 1112

00:54:34,604 --> 00:54:37,840

for their service because I think it's

a really tough job But it's a really

: 1113

00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,470

noble profession at the same time,

: 1114

00:54:39,570 --> 00:54:40,010

Chris P. Reed: man.

: 1115

00:54:40,020 --> 00:54:43,090

Well, that's, you know,

it's been a lot today.

: 1116

00:54:43,090 --> 00:54:46,569

I think it's been very beneficial

for myself personally, definitely

: 1117

00:54:46,580 --> 00:54:48,530

my audience or our audience.

: 1118

00:54:48,819 --> 00:54:51,220

1 of the things that I want

to congratulate and thank

: 1119

00:54:51,220 --> 00:54:52,670

you for joining us today.

: 1120

00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,540

Thank you for imparting that wisdom

and thank you for as a civil servant.

: 1121

00:54:56,835 --> 00:54:59,605

Understanding that these

people are your people.

: 1122

00:55:00,165 --> 00:55:04,305

And so, you know, you really do

embody that and exemplify that.

: 1123

00:55:04,555 --> 00:55:08,754

And that's a great way to do

your job and make this a better

: 1124

00:55:08,754 --> 00:55:11,004

situation for everyone going forward.

: 1125

00:55:11,035 --> 00:55:14,324

I'm sure you'll never know the families

that you've impacted positively.

: 1126

00:55:14,324 --> 00:55:17,915

It's just numerous at this point in time,

but that you're doing it for the right

: 1127

00:55:17,925 --> 00:55:19,405

reasons, not for the numbers, right?

: 1128

00:55:19,415 --> 00:55:20,375

It's not for a spreadsheet.

: 1129

00:55:20,455 --> 00:55:20,825

That's right.

: 1130

00:55:20,825 --> 00:55:22,105

And, uh, I appreciate that.

: 1131

00:55:22,105 --> 00:55:25,844

And I want to thank you, uh, sheriff

Peter Koutoujian for coming on and

: 1132

00:55:25,844 --> 00:55:26,865

sharing that with our audience.

: 1133

00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:27,890

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian:

Thank you, Chris.

: 1134

00:55:28,010 --> 00:55:28,590

Thank you, Tony.

: 1135

00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:30,170

Tony Tidbit: He killed it.

: 1136

00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:30,990

You're awesome.

: 1137

00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:35,740

And I, you know what the other

lesson don't take no for an answer.

: 1138

00:55:37,770 --> 00:55:40,759

keep moving forward, believe

in it, make it happen.

: 1139

00:55:40,959 --> 00:55:43,829

So I want you to stay right

there because you're going to

: 1140

00:55:43,829 --> 00:55:45,310

help us with our call to action.

: 1141

00:55:45,489 --> 00:55:48,840

I think it's now time

for what Tony's tidbit.

: 1142

00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:51,820

So now it's time for Tony's

tidbit and the tidbit today.

: 1143

00:55:52,915 --> 00:55:56,045

Reform goes beyond changing systems.

: 1144

00:55:56,385 --> 00:56:01,875

It's about transforming lives by

shifting our perspective on justice.

: 1145

00:56:02,245 --> 00:56:07,195

We begin the real work of correction,

empowering individual through

: 1146

00:56:07,245 --> 00:56:13,644

understanding and redefining

corrections to foster community growth.

: 1147

00:56:14,274 --> 00:56:18,455

And you heard that today from our

brother, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.

: 1148

00:56:18,605 --> 00:56:21,325

I mean, look, this brother,

man, I love you a lot.

: 1149

00:56:21,765 --> 00:56:25,155

And if anything, a black executive

perspective podcast can do

: 1150

00:56:25,155 --> 00:56:27,454

for you, you don't hesitate.

: 1151

00:56:27,755 --> 00:56:28,415

Okay.

: 1152

00:56:28,485 --> 00:56:31,015

You don't all you do is just let us know.

: 1153

00:56:31,025 --> 00:56:35,884

We got your back because we need more

sheriffs like you in this system.

: 1154

00:56:36,005 --> 00:56:38,415

I could imagine there's other

people doing stuff as well.

: 1155

00:56:38,815 --> 00:56:40,005

But my point is.

: 1156

00:56:40,540 --> 00:56:42,450

The hells are the things

that make a difference.

: 1157

00:56:42,450 --> 00:56:45,900

And back to Chris's point,

you probably have no clue.

: 1158

00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,609

Yes, you probably get calls and emails,

but you probably have no clue of the

: 1159

00:56:49,610 --> 00:56:55,200

lives that you're affecting, not just

today, but those kids lives in the future.

: 1160

00:56:55,850 --> 00:57:00,409

It's going to grow up in a more

fostered, more loving family because

: 1161

00:57:00,409 --> 00:57:01,890

of the programs you put them in.

: 1162

00:57:01,890 --> 00:57:04,350

So you stay right there, my

friend, because we're going

: 1163

00:57:04,350 --> 00:57:05,350

to call you right back.

: 1164

00:57:05,450 --> 00:57:08,310

Chris P. Reed: We want to make sure

that we take this time to remind you

: 1165

00:57:08,310 --> 00:57:10,260

to tune in to the weekly segment.

: 1166

00:57:10,625 --> 00:57:15,995

Need to know with DrNsenga Burton, a black

is yet to perspective podcast is where Dr.

: 1167

00:57:15,995 --> 00:57:19,274

Burton dives into timely and

crucial topics that shape

: 1168

00:57:19,274 --> 00:57:20,645

our community and the world.

: 1169

00:57:20,645 --> 00:57:25,605

In fact, she's multi hyphenated

so deep, so broad, so talented

: 1170

00:57:25,734 --> 00:57:26,915

and so full of energy.

: 1171

00:57:27,065 --> 00:57:28,395

You have to tune into this.

: 1172

00:57:28,455 --> 00:57:29,555

You don't want to miss it.

: 1173

00:57:29,735 --> 00:57:31,405

She'll explore so many things that matter.

: 1174

00:57:31,620 --> 00:57:33,080

And I guarantee you, you'll love it.

: 1175

00:57:33,220 --> 00:57:34,040

Absolutely.

: 1176

00:57:34,110 --> 00:57:35,990

Tony Tidbit: And listen,

she's, she kills it.

: 1177

00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,450

But more importantly, I hope you

enjoyed today's episode, Beyond

: 1178

00:57:40,450 --> 00:57:45,150

Bars, A New Vision for Corrections,

with Sheriff Peter Koutoujian.

: 1179

00:57:45,170 --> 00:57:47,280

Chris P. Reed: We definitely want

to make sure we, as usual, we take

: 1180

00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:52,500

this time to remind you of our

call to action, LESS, L E S S.

: 1181

00:57:53,015 --> 00:57:59,155

The L stands for learn, educate yourself

as I have today on racial and cultural

: 1182

00:57:59,155 --> 00:58:03,684

nuances and the ability to be visionary

in these areas and make sure that

: 1183

00:58:03,685 --> 00:58:05,285

you impact your community positively.

: 1184

00:58:05,555 --> 00:58:06,244

Absolutely.

: 1185

00:58:06,244 --> 00:58:07,305

Tony Tidbit: Because our goal

: 1186

00:58:07,505 --> 00:58:07,695

Chris P. Reed: is

: 1187

00:58:07,734 --> 00:58:10,065

Tony Tidbit: to decrease

all forms of racism.

: 1188

00:58:10,165 --> 00:58:12,925

So that's why this call to

action is very important.

: 1189

00:58:13,135 --> 00:58:17,475

So after you learn, you have the

letter E since you now learned

: 1190

00:58:17,475 --> 00:58:18,825

and become more enlightened.

: 1191

00:58:19,045 --> 00:58:20,175

Now you should have more.

: 1192

00:58:20,330 --> 00:58:25,540

Be more empathy, have more empathy

for your fellow colleague and friend.

: 1193

00:58:25,540 --> 00:58:27,040

Going back to what Peter talked about.

: 1194

00:58:27,390 --> 00:58:30,380

Understanding once you get

to meet individuals, now you

: 1195

00:58:30,380 --> 00:58:31,840

can see their point of view.

: 1196

00:58:33,130 --> 00:58:35,780

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: And

S, S is to share your insights

: 1197

00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:37,060

and to enlighten others.

: 1198

00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,960

Uh, something that we've done today,

something that I find really interesting.

: 1199

00:58:41,010 --> 00:58:42,490

I love learning about this stuff.

: 1200

00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:43,660

I love being enlightened.

: 1201

00:58:43,660 --> 00:58:46,650

So share your insights

to enlighten others.

: 1202

00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:47,860

Tony Tidbit: Absolutely.

: 1203

00:58:47,870 --> 00:58:49,860

And the final S is stop.

: 1204

00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,589

We want to stop all forms of

discrimination as it comes up in our path.

: 1205

00:58:54,820 --> 00:58:57,880

So if grandpa says something

that's inappropriate at the

: 1206

00:58:57,890 --> 00:59:01,330

Thanksgiving table, you say,

grandpa, we don't believe in that.

: 1207

00:59:01,595 --> 00:59:03,425

And you stop it right there.

: 1208

00:59:03,655 --> 00:59:07,675

And if everyone, and this is something

that Chris and I, we know for a

: 1209

00:59:07,675 --> 00:59:12,155

fact, this is the incorporating

less is in everyone's control.

: 1210

00:59:12,475 --> 00:59:18,245

So if everyone incorporates less

L E S S we'll build a more fair.

: 1211

00:59:18,670 --> 00:59:23,570

More understanding world, and we'll

be able to see the change that we want

: 1212

00:59:23,570 --> 00:59:26,510

to see because less will become more.

: 1213

00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:28,550

Sheriff Peter Koutoujian: And can

I say what I was going to say?

: 1214

00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:29,680

Less is more, Tony.

: 1215

00:59:29,699 --> 00:59:30,989

Less is more, right?

: 1216

00:59:30,989 --> 00:59:32,710

Let's all do less to do more.

: 1217

00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:37,119

Tony Tidbit: Buddy, that's why you want

a black executive perspective, right?

: 1218

00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:39,010

Right, because you fall right within less.

: 1219

00:59:40,570 --> 00:59:43,495

Chris P. Reed: You know, you

know, once again, Thank you, sir.

: 1220

00:59:43,565 --> 00:59:45,775

We, we were, we were

blessed with your presence.

: 1221

00:59:46,215 --> 00:59:50,944

We want to make sure that everyone in

earshot goes to the website, signs up for

: 1222

00:59:50,944 --> 00:59:55,505

the newsletter, keep reaching out to us

to review, subscribe, listen to us, uh,

: 1223

00:59:55,575 --> 00:59:57,675

wherever you get your podcasts, make sure.

: 1224

00:59:57,845 --> 01:00:03,145

That you're giving us information that

we can take back and grow as a community.

: 1225

01:00:04,215 --> 01:00:04,765

Tony Tidbit: Absolutely.

: 1226

01:00:04,775 --> 01:00:08,564

And you can follow a black executive

perspective podcast on all our socials,

: 1227

01:00:09,015 --> 01:00:15,494

X, TikTok, YouTube, LinkedIn, and

Facebook at a black exec for our fabulous

: 1228

01:00:15,495 --> 01:00:19,845

guests, Sheriff Peter Koutoujian from

the Middlesex County, Massachusetts.

: 1229

01:00:19,845 --> 01:00:20,805

We want to thank him.

: 1230

01:00:21,060 --> 01:00:23,620

For the co host with the most Chris P.

: 1231

01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,720

Reed, I'm Tony Tidbit.

: 1232

01:00:25,950 --> 01:00:27,250

We talked about it.

: 1233

01:00:27,340 --> 01:00:28,770

We learned about it.

: 1234

01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:29,750

We love you.

: 1235

01:00:29,830 --> 01:00:30,620

And guess what?

: 1236

01:00:30,670 --> 01:00:31,060

We're out.

: 1237

01:00:35,399 --> 01:00:37,970

BEP Narrator: A black

executive perspective.